They got away with murder

Okay, so who would win in a fight? The Brothers Grimm or Hans Christian Andersen? Well, I mean, Hans Christian Andersen died a virgin. So I think he would win because of all that pent up sexual energy. The Brothers Grimm, they were not only writers, but they were also like politicians and lobbyists and like extremely well educated. None of this is saying that they would know how to fight but um they're at least determined to uh progress their careers basically i think my argument boils down to the fact that the brothers grim would win because there is two of them so there you go that's pretty good logic there that's all i have to say hello and welcome to the popcorn isn't real i'm leif eric i'm here with my brother torvald and today we are going to be talking about the 2005 film the brothers grim directed by terry gilliam written on spec by aaron kruger and then rewritten completely by terry gilliam and tony grisoni who were not credited

as writers and instead credited themselves as dress pattern makers and then were quoted as saying that the film was made from a dress pattern and not necessarily a screenplay oh because the writers guild wouldn't let them be credited as writers on it for some reason and they gave aaron kruger soul writing credit even though uh tony grissoni and terry gilliam did do they wrote the script that was shot but anyway i remember i went to see it when i was younger like when i was a kid i had really high expectations for it uh so yeah like this movie came out in 2005 and we were so stoked to see it i remember like it looked so cool and of course i love like dark fairy tales and it just looked amazing and then terry gilliam who i had not seen any of his films but i knew i loved monty python you knew him from monty python yeah but i knew he was really weird and i thought that was cool so i was like oh terry gilliam and the movie

is not even of course at the time we didn't watch rated r movies because we were young and so like most of the really cool dark movies that came out you couldn't watch and this was pg-13 so i was You're like, oh, this is going to be so great. And well, it's interesting because every other movie, I think, in this specific weird dark fairy tale subgenre, which I would include things like Van Helsing with Hugh Jackman, Hansel and Gretel, Witch Hunter, and The Brothers Grimm. Maybe even the Underworld movies to some extent. They have a similar tone. But like none of those movies are very good, you know? No. They keep trying that. And it's weird because a lot of them are kind of like half comedies. Like, this is clearly a comedy. And so is Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters, right? One thing that they do, though, is they take like a sort of a dark fairy tale sort of thing. But then they always, for some reason, make it into like an action-adventure movie, which is weird because I kind of don't think that fits.

But like Van Helsing is action-adventure, Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunter is. This is not so much action, but definitely very adventure. It's got some really horrifying moments. But as a whole, it's not like a horror movie or anything. The very first thing they do is they're like, hey, guess what? This dark fantasy that you're here to see, actually, it's all fake. The Brothers Grimm, they're just scammers, right? Like, they're the scam artists who scam people and they made up all the fairy tales. But then they turned it around after that and they're like, actually, it is real. And the Brothers Grimm are going to this forest to fight trees. The portrayal of the Brothers after that point and for the rest of the movie was just kind of like inept. they're kind of like blundering buffoons who suck at everything yeah watching it again i thought it was a fun movie yeah no i had that same experience obviously i wasn't as hyped as i was as a kid and

and so i was like you know it's it's well made and it's got some very crazy strange visuals and and honestly the acting's great like they're good actors it's matt damon and heath ledger like both of them are actually good actors i thought it would have been really interesting to pit these unbelievably skilled scam artists up against like another group of master scam artists or maybe even like real magic but instead they just immediately turned them into a bunch of useless buffoons like i said well how would you feel if i told you that this movie actually is about how the brothers grim are quite possibly the greatest con artists and biggest geniuses that germany had ever seen and this entire movie was actually a plot to lure the french army and the french army general out to marbaden so they could assassinate him while convincing the only surviving commanding officer that magic is real and that they are actually heroes so that they could get away with murder

dude okay no i actually i like this on a number of levels so you're saying basically that this movie is kind of like young Sherlock Holmes. We're like, dude, yeah, kind of. Well, not exactly. But ignoring the drugs, you're saying that every single magical thing that happens in this movie is a setup. Yes, there is no magic in this movie. Okay. And specifically, their entire purpose with this was to drive out the French army from Germany. Yes, they are trying to assassinate the general okay but then i would ask you if that's what was happening all along why didn't they reveal it at the end because that would have been cool that would have been quick maybe they just forgot all right so you got the brothers grim they're these master scam artists who make a living um you know scaring the the poor uh superstitious villagers in the dark ages into thinking that they're being haunted or they're being plagued by vicious demons or magical spells

and uh they come in and they fix the problem and they take money from the poor people right they're rounded up by the french army who's occupying germany at this time and the french army says we know who you are we know what you're doing we don't like it we're gonna kill you but someone else is doing what you're doing in this little town called marbaden the little town of marbaden they say since you know all about this stuff and we don't You go down there, figure out who's doing this, and stop them. And then we'll let you go free. The Brothers Grimm say, great, let's do it. They go down to the town of Marbaden where young girls are getting kidnapped. They have a bunch of adventures down there. They find out that it's probably actual magic. And it's from this old queen who died 500 years ago who's trying to get resurrected. They have a big standoff with the queen and with the French army that comes down to put a stop to it.

And in the end, they drive out not only the French army, but also all the evil magic. And they save the young girls who were kidnapped. The first thing I want to talk about for my theory is their first con. Okay, right. So the first con where he accidentally bought a bunch of magic beans that weren't magic. Oh, not that one. No, I thought that was a cool way to set it up, though. Yeah, yeah. Because it's like one of the defining moments of their life was getting conned. Will is one of the brothers and Jacob is the other. But the first con that they do as adults is a witch. Let's hear it. What do you want to point out about them banishing the soul of this witch? So they go, they're going to save this village from this witch that is terrorizing the miller. They go to the mill and the miller is with them. The witch attacks. The entire barn is shaking, mostly the front door, but kind of seems like the entire barn is shaking.

It didn't seem like the whole barn. Yeah. The witch's clothes are like floating around her malevolently. She comes down from the sky. She's so evil looking, just like absolutely terrifying. It's full of smoke, fire, like things are being catapulted all around the room of their own accord. Yeah. She like force pushes both of the brothers backward. There's like an intense sequence where they're like almost going to kill each other. like the witch is forcing them to aim their weapons at each other, but then they manage to break free and shoot the witch with the arrow and kill her. She spins around with like smoke coming out of her, somehow turns into a bunch of snakes. The whole thing is very magical seeming. The miller seems to view it all and they tell him to go and bury the remains. And then afterward it's revealed, oh, it was all fake. Except that the miller actually believed it, right?

Like he was conned. The miller actually believed it. He left and then their actors come out. It turns out one of them was, like, shaking the doors with a rope and making, like, thundering noises. Not just that. He was controlling every other device in the entire building. Yeah, they have one actor was doing everything. He had ropes and pulleys and springboards. And he was using the other actor like a puppet. He had him strung up as the witch. Well, the other actor was literally just a body. He wasn't doing anything. This guy is apparently the most talented person in the world. I know, and he's depicted as being, like, really stupid. This guy, he's legit. Like, he did it all. He was throwing the Brothers Grimm around the room. Every time we see one of their cons, it's important that we are actually seeing it from the illusions point of view. Like, whoever is being tricked by the con, that's what we are seeing.

Right. And that makes sense. Because like you said, as established in this movie, we saw that scene with the witch from the point of view of the mark until they dropped the act and showed us what happened. Well, and another thing, too, is that, like, they tell one of their actors to, like, watch out for the springboard and, like, this big board just pops up from the ground, which is how they were catapulted backward by the witch, right? They had these springboards. That springboard is very visible. Like, once it pops up, it's not hidden in any way. Like, it was under hay to begin with. No, it just stays popped up. Right. So, they're clearly masters of misdirection. Like, they're not necessarily hiding all these traps, but people just are seeing what they want them to see because of kind of the whole, the story they tell, right? They come into town, they tell the story about the witch. They pull people into their narrative and then those people start to see only what they want them to see as part of the narrative.

I think they set up their cons way in advance because at the end of this scene, Will says, have a couple days rest and meet us in Hamburg. Jake knows a legend of a bridge troll there. So they figure out a place that already has some legends. They send people there beforehand to kind of apparently like dress up as witches and like scare people randomly. So then they can come in and offer their services to get rid of witches and trolls. Okay. They are playing the long con, I think, in different locations and setting things up in Hamburg and possibly in Marbaden. How are they not, like, filthy, stinking rich? Like, why are they still doing this? When they presented their price to the mayor, like, he was, like, aghast. He practically, like, fainted because it was so expensive what they were asking for. Seems like two or three cons like this and they'd be set for life. I think that they are artists, right?

And to Jake, it's all about thinking up the next cool story and the next cool con they can carry out, right? They spend so much money with the prep work for creating all these traps that they end up not making very much profit and they have to keep doing it, which is fine from Jake's perspective because I think he really likes doing this. He likes creating that story. That's a good explanation. And honestly, the stuff they used even today would have cost a fortune. Like, so back then when you couldn't get anything mass produced, like, geez. Right, right. So after this witch scene, we do, we cut away to Marbaden and we see Red Riding Hood getting kidnapped. And this is the next thing that I was going to ask you, because this happens before they get to Marbaden, before they're even arrested by the French. But clearly there's some superstitious things happening. Like, I don't know whose point of view it's from.

it's either the little girl or i guess maybe the old man little red riding hood she's walking in the woods and picking berries she pricks her finger something's watching her a wolf howls and she starts to run away and then a living moving tree is blocking her away so if she saw this then either there are living moving trees in this forest or someone was there to make it look like there were and that's gonna have to be explained yeah now eventually she gets out of the woods but something lands on her like we're seeing from the camera the camera is from this thing's point of view it lands on her and she screams while the old man calls out to her and all that's left after that is her little red riding hood on a tree so whose point of view is this from and how did the brothers pull it off without right right yeah so then that's a good question whose point of view is this from i would say this is actually from no one's point of view

I believe that there are people in this village who are already doing the setup work for the Grimm's. There are people who are taking these girls. And I actually believe that the young girls are complicit in the scheme. I think that these people are much like the witch. I'm sure they had one of their actors go out and start screaming next to the lake or something to scare people. They're screaming at night. They're doing scary things. They're having young girls mysteriously disappear. And they're trying to make it seem like, oh, something terrible is happening. Monsters are kidnapping them. Something is taking them away. For who? It sounds like you're saying that the whole village is in on it. Right, yeah. So who are they tricking? Who they are tricking is the French. They're tricking the French army. But the French aren't there. Right. They could just tell the French that it happened. And that's what they're doing.

You think it's from the Frenchman's perspective that this is the story they were told. Yeah, and it's because it is in this village's best interest. The village wants to get rid of the French, and they want their region to be liberated from the French. Okay, so you say everyone in the village is in on it. Does that include Angelica, the trapper woman who they meet there? Oh, absolutely, yes. Oh, Angelica's the most in on it. She's the one who's doing everything. No, it would have to. Angelica, we'll get to this, but Angelica and her father are 100% like Grimm's agents in the field right now. The Grimms aren't there. Angelica and her father are doing everything. And you believe that her father actually existed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Her father exists. He's alive. He hasn't been held by some witch hostage. That's just a story they made up. Okay. But no, her father is out there in the woods doing scary things.

They're making up stories. They're preparing to kill the Frenchmen who eventually come, or at least trick them. The Brothers Grimm, they go to a party. They're partying with these villagers because they just got rid of the witch. And Jacob, while drunk, gets up on a table and he's like, nothing can come between the Brothers Grimm. Not even witches. That makes sense that he would say that. Not even animals in disguise. Well, that's something that happens later in this movie. Doesn't make sense that he would say that. Not even murderous queens. Hmm. That happens later in the movie, too. Why would he say that? Certainly does. Well, it's because they're already planning this con and he's drunk and he's just kind of giving away their secrets. Yeah. Which is why Will gets mad. Because he's talking about animals in disguise and murderous queens. That's part of their next con. Don't give it away.

But also, it could just be because Jacob starts talking about how much money they're making. Which I think would be the general viewer's interpretation of this scene. Will is hitting on these two twin ladies and clearly, clearly wants to have a threesome with his brother. Desperately wants to bang them with his brother. Like, desperately. Or a foursome, I guess, in this case. But yeah, no, he really wants a threesome with his brother. And in a really fun, I think clever reversal at the end, I believe Will actually gets what he wants. Well, we'll talk about that when we get to the end.

I'm looking forward to it. What he's clearly turned on by is siblings in bed together. That's his thing. That's his kink. And he really wants his brother to be one of those siblings. He had to settle for these two twins, unfortunately. Yeah, it's, you know, not quite what he wanted, but he'll do for now. So they spend the night there and then they get arrested by the French soldiers. At the moment when they are getting arrested in the inn, I think it's important. The film is trying to tell us something by setting up a visual similarity. They are pulled out of the tavern by ropes around their feet that they did not notice. Will doesn't even notice the rope coiled around his foot until Jacob points it out. And this is going to be a recurring motif that happens again later in this movie. Well, I want to point out here, as they are arrested by the French and taken before the general, they meet the master torturer Cavaldi, Mercurio Cavaldi.

And he's actually Italian, not French. But he is a French official, even if his nationality is Italian. Mercurio Cavaldi takes the brothers to General de la Tumbe. They're in a bad situation. Their actor friends are getting tortured by snails in boiling water. You think none of this was part of the Brothers Grimm plan? Like they're taken completely off guard here and they didn't expect their friends to get tortured. I think they're smart enough that they would have wanted to avoid getting like captured and put in a like you have to do this or you'll die situation. But they end up in this situation and the thing that they were already planning can still go off. And now it's even more important that it goes off without a hitch. Since you're talking about how Cavalli, like he says, the bambinis are getting captured. I thought this is really interesting. Cavalli, the torturer, like this evil, sadistic, weird person.

He seems to actually genuinely care about the kids. Yeah. And not like a weird, creepy way either. No, no. He cares about them. Like he's worried about these kids. He's like a really complex character. Like I, at first I didn't like him at all because he's weird. But as the movie went along, I loved him because he's weird. Yeah, he's one of the most surprising parts of this movie. Terry Gilliam calls him a torture artist. But really, he's a tortured artist. I kind of think that Cavalli is Terry Gilliam. That was actually my thought that I had too, was that because Cavalli is such an odd character and Terry Gilliam is so odd and his co-writer was Tony Grissoni with an Italian name, I figured that one of the main things they added when they rewrote this script was probably Cavaldi. I think so too. At this point, the brothers Grimm arrive in Marbadon. They know they're in trouble. They've been setting up this con in Marbadon,

but I don't think they were necessarily expecting the French to be there so soon and also have them as their prisoners. So you think they're forced to jump the gun, like they weren't actually ready to go yet. Yeah, and their plan is going to have to change, but they can't talk to anyone about it, which is going to force them to speak in code. And when they first arrive, Will says in a very loud voice to his brother, hey, why don't you look around and see if there are any French soldiers? We wouldn't want to run into any French. He is telling the villagers who are in on their con, look out, we came here with the French, right? They're here early. Everyone in town is pretending to not know the brothers Grimm, except for the little kid, because little kids aren't very good at lying. Sasha runs up to them, and when everyone else is like, Brothers Grimm, we don't know you, she's like, Yeah, I know them. They kill trolls and giants.

So you think she's not just saying she knows of them. You think she's actually met them, and she's blowing it by saying, Yeah, I know them. I think she is kind of blowing it a little, but it also establishes that, no matter what, they are known in these parts, whether or not the adults are admitting to that. So they have a town hall. The townspeople make some odd claims, and every single one of them has a different story. Some say the trees carry people away. Others are saying wolves. Others say a flying creature took Red Riding Hood. They're all giving kind of different versions of the story. Maybe they hadn't gotten their story straight yet. And as the townspeople are telling them all these stories, it is clear that Jacob and Will are coming up with ideas for how they are going to pull off this scheme of theirs that is now happening earlier than they wanted it to. Yeah, they're talking about them.

Jacob is making a list of all the things that they will need. And Will whispers to Jacob, rope, pulley, snapboards, fishing line, wolf's pelt. It's expensive. Now, you could say that they're just saying what they think that the bad guys are doing, right? It could be, could be. Or maybe this explains, you know, why they don't have that much money. Because clearly their schemes are expensive, as he's saying. And note that all the things that they list are tools that they use later on. They use snapboards, they use rope, and Angelica uses a wolf pelt, and so does her dad. She asks them where they got that wolf pelt, so maybe she didn't expect them to have it. So Will says, we need a guide, someone who knows the forest. Now he's fishing for them to take them to their co-conspirator, Angelica, but he has to act like he doesn't know her. Do you know why, either in your theory or in-universe, why everyone hates her?

Well, in my theory, it's because it's and she's cool with this because she hates the French. She and her dad are willing to be used as scapegoats if necessary. If all else fails, they will be the ones be like, yeah, we kidnapped the kids. And so that's why as part of their cover story, they're being like, oh, yeah, we hate those guys. Just we hate her. It needs to, you know, it needs to work out later. OK, so the first time we see Angelica Krause, the trapper, she is covered in furs and we can't quite tell who or what she is. is. And I think this is just a hint later on that her father uses the same method to sneak around in the forest looking like a wolf. In my version, I don't think he's actually a wolf. I think he's just wearing a wolf skin like she does later. Okay. So I was thinking about your theory while I watched this part and I just had kind of a thought because they go in, one of them immediately

starts asking, uh, is your dad here? Your brother? Like I thought that they had originally planned to work with the dad yeah not with angelica i think you're right the dad was out in the forest at the time and she was in town and it kind of got setting up they weren't supposed to be there yet so i thought that maybe things were supposed to go backwards but they had to just kind of roll with it this way maybe she was supposed to be the one out there being the bad guy and the dad was supposed to be helping them but they had to roll with whatever they were dealt so right so they have a conversation for Cavaldi's benefit. He's with them in like every scene so they can't ever talk about any of their plans. They have to introduce themselves because she knows who they are but if she acts like she knows who they are before they've introduced themselves then that'll seem weird so they have to be like

They have to let her know clearly and quickly that the men who are with them aren't to be trusted. Right? So they quickly launch into you know like this is us we're the Brothers Grimm you don't know us wink wink. Also they say they vanquish the Frog Boy and the cannibal chef of the Gingerbread House of Terror. Now, I don't know exactly what happened there, but I'm just saying, clearly they've done some pretty intense cons if they had to make like a Gingerbread House of Terror. I would go to that Halloween haunted house. Then, for no reason whatsoever, Cavaldi starts acting weird and threatening toward Angelica. Yeah, he does that a lot in this movie. One thing to note about Cavaldi, especially in my theory, is that he has very good instincts. Yeah, he's very intuitive. I think he knows something is off about Angelica. I agree. He's not sure what, but he knows he doesn't like her. And I think this is true no matter how you watch this movie.

Either way, Cavaldi suspects Angelica clearly. Like, whether he should or not, he does. But in the normal movie, what is he suspecting her of? I mean, he probably, I guess you could say he suspects that she's working with the bad guys who are quote unquote haunting the forest. And in effect, according to your theory, he's right. She is. The bad guys are just the Brothers Grimm. Angelica takes them to the forest. And so here's a problem with their plan. Angelica is not really an actor. She's more of a trapper. Like, that's actually what she does. She was working with her dad. She's kind of filling in for him while he was setting up traps. And I don't think she necessarily knows exactly what the whole plan was. And she's not quite doing what the Brothers Grimm want. When Will introduced himself earlier, she didn't introduce herself. so very loudly while in the forest will introduces himself to angelica twice until she tells him her

name like he's like i'm will and she says nothing and he's like i'm will and finally she's like i'm angelica because like he might accidentally say her name later and then cavaldi would know so he needs her to introduce herself so he he introduced himself not once twice but three times before Or finally she gets the message. She's just really cold, and he just likes her. So he's trying to get her to tell him her name. Will, at this point, knows they've arrived too soon, has no idea what has been set up and what has not, and needs to get information from Angelica, but in code. So he says to Angelica, he's like, you know, nine times out of ten, there's a human perpetrator. Gotta have a hideout. He's gotta have a base of operations. For example, this cave here. He's trying to figure out what her dad has set up. He's also clearly asking her with that first line. He's like, have nine girls been kidnapped or have ten?

He's like, where are we in the schedule?

That's really good. So he's talking to her in a thinly veiled coat. Very thinly veiled, I would say. And telling her that her father needs a place to hide and come out and set traps and that that cave would be a really good place for him to hide. He's essentially revealing the whole plan right in front of the French without actually revealing. it but then how does she respond is she helpful no she's not she's never that's another thing about angelica she's not helpful but i think that's because she's not a people person and she wasn't expecting to have to deal with the brothers she's not an actor but she has to now because they're here and now she's the one that they know maybe they were going to be dealing with her dad and she was going to be the one in the forest but that's not how it worked out so they got to go with it now without the ability to be able to even tell each other anything i mean this

is really suspenseful if they had done the story like this right but it couldn't have been suspenseful because they had to have revealed it at the end, right? It would only be suspenseful on second viewing. It's true. Still great, though. Someone should actually make this movie. Like, this is real good. So Angelica convinces them to get rid of their horses because, as she says, even animals wouldn't go this way. Animals do go that way later. She's totally lying, and it's important to their plan that their horses be unguarded. Then she tries to get the French to get rid of their weapons, but they won't. and like clearly she's just like man it'd be better if these french didn't have their weapons now will reassures her saying we work with other tools angelica and then they take out their like their other tools they have but what he's saying is like we work with tricks angelica it doesn't matter if they have weapons that's fine the plan is still good we'll do what we were gonna do to

begin with you know we have other tools all right i like it now you're saying that they left the horses unguarded specifically so that her dad could interact with them. Yeah. So he can specifically poison one and make it go crazy. Then this actually is really good evidence for your theory, because why would she tell them that horses don't go that way? Why would she lie unless they need to set up some more tricks? I mean, that's pretty good. And then a lot of what happens in the rest of this scene as they kind of go to the tower is them sort of just setting up the mood. Like Will takes out this weird device with a tuning fork and then Jacob kind of gives a look of apology to Angelica like sorry we've we got to set up the illusion here um and Will being like it's safe to proceed and if you think about it why would they be doing this because they have no one to trick like they're just here to catch the tricksters the Frenchmen know that they're con artists and

they have no need to scam Angelica in the movie as viewed by a normal viewer so what are they doing Right. And then Will notices that there are crows here. And he's like, this stupid Angelica, you said animals couldn't go here. So he's like, all right, well, I better point it out before the French notice, right? So he's like, I thought you said animals don't come here. And then Angelica covering says they don't drink from the spring, changing her story completely and also clearly just trying to freak out the French because she sees right next to her they're drinking from the spring. Does anything happen to them because they drank from that spring? No, nothing at all. There's no reason not to drink from that spring. She's just trying to freak the French people out while distracting them from the fact that she lied about the animals. And that spring canonically in this movie connects to the well in the village, which everyone drinks from, even her. So yes, everything drinks from that spring.

Yes, it's true. Jacob is also trying to establish the mood. He's like, are you getting a sense of dread? It's almost like a smell. And then Cavaldi walks past them and says, death. And this is when Angelica and I think all of them notice a problem with their plan. Cavaldi is not afraid at all. They weren't counting on the French official to be, A, actually Italian, and B, a master of the torturing arts. Yeah. So their plan is going to have to change a little. Well, and C, like a total weirdo. literally in the same shot as when Cavaldi says death Will comments you're not afraid are you not like the villagers now it cuts to a shot of Angelica like he's looking at her like maybe he was asking her clearly he's telling Angelica he's not afraid right like Cavaldi's not afraid at all not like the villagers were pretending to be you know right when he makes that comment when he says you're not afraid are you

and it shows Angelica The next shot is two of the trees rustling violently, and it actually makes Cavaldi flinch. So they have people in the trees who are working with them, you know, kind of like their actors before who he's like, he's not afraid, guys, in a loud voice. And they're like, OK, rustle the trees a little. It's around this point, I think, that Cavaldi sees like a golden ring and it's like on a stick or something. And he goes to grab it, but it's a trap and a bunch of birds burst out and poop on him. Which isn't the most scary thing, but I guess it is a jump scare. No, but I freeze-framed this, and I swear the thing that jumps out to grab him is an actual hand. Oh. Maybe it's a root, but to me it really looked like a hand. Interesting. You only see it for just a couple frames. But he doesn't even care about that. He gets mad at the birds. He's like, I'll kill you and eat your eggs.

And at this point is also when her dad is poisoning one of the horses and I believe actually setting up the traps that will be used later when they go into the forest again. And I think that right now they're having an issue where none of them are in contact with each other. That's why Angelica is like, we need to leave in a different direction. We can't run into my dad who is probably setting up traps or possibly run into the traps prematurely when we're not ready for them. So you're saying she came up with the stupid toad-licking thing on the fly. Just as like, I gotta get out of here a different way. Hey, watch me lick this toad. Which is why her personality subtly changes. Like, she's not an actor. She's just a random trapper. And she's just like, oh, all right. I'm going to do a stupid song and dance number. Oh, tell me your story, Mother Toad. Swinging around random. This is the only time she does this in the whole movie.

She has a different personality in this one scene. It's because she thinks it's stupid. She's like, this is dumb. Like, I can't come up with anything else, though. The brothers are arguing against her right now. They're like, hey, the French are going to know something's up, Angelica. Let's go back the way we came. I have to point something out to you, which is just that at this point, trees have moved, like actually moved. How can you get around this? Like, people see trees walking around on their roots. Yeah, I mean, I do think a little bit of maybe the roots moving is kind of like we saw with the witch, how things look more real from the perspective of the person being tricked. But what I do want to say is every single tree that actually physically moves around is a small tree. Small tree. And that's not me making anything up. They are all small trees. Trees that someone could easily push around.

And they do say things about like wooden wheels and tracks. Like later on when Will's trying to figure out how his co-conspirators actually set this up, because he's kind of curious, right? He's like, maybe they have tracks. And I will say that the entire forest floor is always covered with leaves. So there could be wheels and tracks there and you just wouldn't see them. It would be incredibly easy for the French to just bend down and look at the tracks, though. Right, right. But like the Miller didn't see their snap board that pops up right into eye view. It's true. I mean, as long as they can keep them superstitious and scared, they're not gonna, you know, think twice about it. I want to ask you, because you say that the dad poisoned the horse. Did he poison the horse with actual spiders? I don't know. It doesn't make much sense. Why would a horse eat spiders? Maybe do horses eat spiders?

I don't think so. But maybe, I don't know. Honestly, I think a horse would eat anything you held out to it if it thought it was food. All right. Yeah. So maybe he feeds them like spiders. Some spiders do have weird poisons. I don't know. He's a woodsman, right? He would know these things. But what do you think the spiders did to this horse? Did they turn it into some sort of superpowered spider horse? Because that's what they did in the movie. Yeah, yeah. that's the next uh the next part but uh uh no i don't believe that it did that i believe all it did was make the horse bloated and angry and so it ran away okay there is a moment where they do get to talk to angelica alone just briefly when they come back and she's saying i'm not going with you tomorrow which i think is because she's like dudes i gotta set up more traps guys like i can't always be with you and cavaldi a little girl hears a voice that's like help me and she

comes out she sees a crazy horse that was drugged we get a really weird scene where the girl is eaten up by the horse that spits out spider webs yeah it's just really weird right like she touches its mouth and gets spider webs on her hand but then instead of being able to shake them off she gets more and more webbed up even though more and more webs aren't really being produced and then because of the spider webs the horse does what spiders do not do which is eat her whole like this is a really weird scene do you think anything actually happened in that stable because the only person in there to witness it was the girl well i do believe that elsie that's i believe that's the name of this girl is kidnapped and taken to the forest at some point i don't know if it's by this horse i don't think that much of this happens and also when the brothers grim come out to check on the screaming horse we get a just a straight up weird scene where this little girl

is like, somehow they see into the horse's mouth. They can see down its throat. Yes. And they can see there's a little girl in there. And then they start screaming, Elsie, maybe I missed something. How do they know her name? No, I don't know. They knew Sasha, but I don't remember meeting another little girl. They're trying to establish that a little girl has now been taken. Yeah. Because there's no way for anyone to know that, except unless they saw into this horse's throat, Which is their story, and they're sticking to it, right? And it's a very important theme you'll notice throughout this movie. Anytime anything really supernatural happens, none of the French soldiers see it. Only the Brothers Grimm or like Angelica see it, or maybe the villagers. But the French people never see anything supernatural. No, they just see the aftermath. Will says, they could mechanize the horse, put it on tracks, to which Jacob replies,

do you see any tracks, Will? And then he also says something about they could use a warped mirror or something like that. Like, I just don't know why he's saying you could mechanize the horse and the horse literally just ran away. Like, it's running. It is a horse that runs. Like, I don't even know what he's saying. I think the idea here is that a horse cannot swallow a little girl whole. So whatever this is, is not a living horse. So how could they have a machine or something that could swallow a little girl and then run away? And I will say that horses can get huge bulging bellies just from eating certain types of food. Like even just eating hay will give them that. So clearly whatever he did, the spider set it ate to make it go crazy also made its belly bulge really big. And I don't think there's a little girl down its throat. But they all end up in the forest at this point. And this is when the French people do experience some supernatural happenings.

Now this is important to me and this is one of my biggest questions for you. I want to know how you can possibly make this work in real life. One of the trees reaches down and lifts up a Frenchman and his horse just carries them both away. How did they manage that? There are a few ways to argue around this. First of all, a lot of what's happening in this forest, the things that we see, I do think is what Cavaldi is imagining as he's hearing them, right? They're making a lot of noise. Oh, no. Like when the Brothers Grimm were alone, the trees are attacking us. And Angelica's like, a wolf. I'm fighting a wolf. And Cavaldi's kind of imagining that. He doesn't actually see any of it. Cavaldi does get knocked off of his horse by a random branch that just like comes out of nowhere. Like that would be easy to fake, right? And so he's like, trees are attacking us on our horses. I'll bet a tree got them on their horse.

Exactly. Yeah. He got attacked by a tree. He hears sounds of people being attacked by trees in the forest nearby, but he can't see them. He even says to his men, he says, don't lose sight of the Brothers Grimm, because he suspects that, like, they fled to the forest because they're up to something, right? So when the soldier is lifted away, and his horse, I will say that this is, in some ways, reminiscent of a very classic snare called a tree spring trap with a noose. Where there's a little noose, and it's attached to a bendy tree, and you get caught in it, and then you're just lifted away. Homer did it to a squirrel. Yep. And so I kind of think that's what happened here. I don't know if it picked up his horse, too, but I do know that another version of a snare is just a normal foot snare. And that's what happens to the other guy, right? He gets snagged with a foot snare and then dragged away under a tree. Maybe this seems like a stretch here, but Angelica and her father are literally referred to as trappers. This is what they do is they set traps.

Yeah, they pull horses into the sky. That's what they do. Well, I mean, but they might trap things that are like horses, like deer and stuff. do you know how much a horse weighs it's like it weighs as much as a car i i said i don't know if the horse actually got lifted up in the air maybe that's just kind of what we saw you know well then i have to ask you about an angelica because it's at this moment that she's confronted by a wolf which attacks her and then stands on its hind legs and walks over to her and then she shoots it it catches the arrow in its mouth and crunches it and did any of that happen? Maybe like they need to be making some sound and noise so that Cavaldi hears it I think she ran into her dad and they're like okay you know we'll have a little fight and his dad was of course wearing that wolf costume like he wears a wolf fur so that when he stands up you can see he's a human

but when he's walking on all fours like Angelica does later he looks like a wolf and maybe she shot an arrow at him and he caught it because he's like freaking badass okay so they were doing like a little rehearsed fight that they had done just in case anyone was watching but with this soldier who gets dragged away by a tree yeah a branch like sprouts out of his mouth and the brothers scream and run away next like that seems hard to explain but then after they have screamed and ran away the camera pans we just see a random sword sticking out of the ground yeah that was like why is the film showing us that this is clearly a coded message the director is telling us the brothers grim actually stabbed this guy with a sword he wasn't impaled by a branch like clearly what really happened here the brothers grim this guy got caught in a snare they just stabbed him and then they went back and they showed us the sword to be

Like, this is what they stabbed him with. Now, Cavaldi sees the wolf, who we know as Angelica's father. And then the body of the man who was caught in the tree, it falls down and it has been chopped in half. Now, this is not how a wolf would kill someone. It would be like Nodon if a wolf killed someone. But this is how a man pretending to be a wolf who has a big axe might chop someone up. Yeah, sure. That's fair. And honestly, that works either way, right? Like, I mean, definitely a woodsman was going around killing people. So the brothers and Angelica, they get out of the forest and they're putting on an act, right? Like they crouch down near this like thingy. I don't even know what it is, but they're freaking out because they know Cavaldi is right behind them, right? And then Cavaldi does come up right behind them, discerns correctly that they were the ones who killed his men. And then he arrests them, right?

And he goes straight back to the general. But right before he arrests them, Will obviously kind of wants to tread softly with Cavaldi here. But Angelica, as she always does, just goes straight for the throat. And she straight up threatens Cavaldi. She tells him, the forest will kill you too. An obvious threat from the daughter of the man who just hacked up one of Cavaldi's soldiers. But he doesn't know that she's that man's daughter. All right, all right. So Cavaldi takes them back to the general. This whole scene is weird. He's back with the French general and he seems like really happy. Like, he's happily announcing that the soldiers died and that he got wounded. Like, he's really excited to show the general this wound on his head. It's a little odd. And then he faints for no reason. Like, he made it all the way there without fainting. It seemed like a long trip. I'm not 100% sure, but all I know is he says,

they tried to blind Cavaldi with their fairy tales and flying wolves and moving trees, but I use my logical brain. They are the ones, the Grimmies. And according to your theory, he's completely correct here. Cavaldi is like an amazing detective. He's got good instincts. At this point, he kind of tortures the brothers, but he mostly just tries to kill Angelica. And it's at this point that they confess, quote unquote. And they say that there were four up in the trees, three in the caves, and that the Germans are rallying behind their folklores and will rise up. Do you think they're just telling the truth here? Yeah. No, I do think that Jacob is actually admitting the truth. I think there were three in the trees who carried away that French guy and possibly his horse. And there were two in the caves, one of which was her dad. Okay. And the people of this village are rising up against the French.

When Jacob is telling them the truth, Angelica says, Stop! You are giving them exactly what they want. Yeah, she did. That's true. She's like, you're blown. My dad and I have been setting up this thing for months. We're going to get free of the French. You're just telling them our plan? Yep. At this point, he asks the general to send them back with their own men and their own equipment. And he says that they'll take out the Germans. This makes so little sense. He's like, yeah, the Germans are going to kill you all. So send us Germans back and I guess we'll take them out if you give us lots of stuff. It's specifically their gear. The gear that is literally only useful for tricking people into believing fairy tales. like Jake is just an amazing con man right like he got the general's confidence the general just gave him what he wanted somehow well at this point they go back to Marbeda and they have all

their stuff Jake is totally committed to not only the con but like kind of the whole backstory the whole fairy tale they're trying to tell and convince the French people of Will wants to get out of there he's like dude this sucks we were almost killed let's get out right like and them being tortured was not part of the plan, right? They thought that Cavaldi would be a lot stupider and more scared than he is, but Cavaldi's a genius. Yes, and he's freaking cold as ice, dude. He's one level-headed dude. So Jake goes in, and this is interesting, he goes in and starts talking to Angelica about the fairy tale story, and at one point he starts laying out papers in front of her. Now, they might be Angelica's sketches, or they could be plans for their con. He's like, these are the traps I want you to set up. Exactly. Will says, we cannot fight an entire forest. What he's saying here is we cannot fight

as an entire forest, i.e. pretend to be an enchanted forest and kill a whole French army. I mean, they do though. Yeah, no, they do. And he says, the thing is, I can't. And then Angelica finishes his sentence and says, protect him. My father thought he could protect his family too, Will. Meaning that I think this all started as her father's plan to get rid of the French. Like he kidnapped his own daughters first and then got the other villagers in on it to try to get the French here. And he's the one setting up all the traps. And this is all his plan to protect them. Cavaldi, who must suspect that Angelica was part of this whole scheme, decides to keep her in the village while the brothers go to the forest. Jake gets mad and he rides into the forest all alone, starts building a catapult, testing it out with the actors who they now have working with them. So he's testing get out with this dummy that they have now i thought it was interesting that they have this

dummy dressed up just like him so will shows up and they catapult what looks like jake up toward the tower and he's like jake and then you get a shot of a person like a stuntman actually falling like i i went through this frame by frame the guy's got real hands it's a real person it is not a dummy will runs up to it turns it over and it is a dummy carved out of wood doesn't even look remotely real but it would if you were expecting to see jake this is absolute confirmation of my theory that like there are lots of parts of this movie where you see what the illusion is and not what it actually is whatever the person being tricked thinks they see right here they weren't even trying to create an illusion it's accidental right like jake is just testing the he's just testing the catapult and that has to be intentional like it would be cheaper to just drop a dummy than a stunt person. Like why actually film a real person falling? Like from the director's point

of view, unless he had a reason. It's important to note at this point that the actors who are with the Brothers Grimm, they say, we need to go get more gear. So they ride back to the village to go get more gear. Before they get back to the village and while the Brothers Grimm are still in the forest, something amazing happens in the village. Oh man, the scene that everyone remembers from this movie dude i certainly remembered this scene i mean like if you look on youtube like the first hit is like the brothers grim mud monster scene yep the comments on the youtube video are like this scarred me so much as a kid it's burned into my mind the scene is fine right up until the end when the mud monster eats the little girl causing it to become a gingerbread man made of mud which then takes a bite out of itself announces i taste good and runs away laughing it would not taste good it is not a gingerbread man it's a mud man and why did eating the little

girl cause it to become a gingerbread mud man okay no so just just tell you what's going on so sasha she's you know by the well she she's one of the little girls of the village she's drawing some water and a crow calls out sasha sasha and then falls into the well she pulls it up in the bucket and it seems dead but then it just splashes her with a little bit of mud and she falls on the ground writhing and one of her eyes is in the mud on the ground and then we see her face and her face is missing she's she's just got skin where her face should be and she's uh writhing around well the well by itself lowers and then raises the bucket to let out a tiny little mud monster it takes the girl's eyes and mouth and they end up on its face and it follows her as everybody watches the old man he pulls out a gun and shoots the mud monster and like in half so only his legs are left stumbling around as Sasha tries to flee to Angelica. The actors have only just arrived

back in town right then while the mud monster is walking around. Angelica gives Sasha to Cavaldi and he holds her close to him in the house trying to protect her. Once again, he is very dedicated to protecting kids. Angelica knows this and she's playing on this. Now she's sitting in his house as his prisoner before all this goes down. And she's kind of trying to get him into the mood for this next part of the con because she says, the great Cavaldi, children in danger, and here he is hiding out. Like she's reminding him that he really loves kids. He hated that. And then she's going to give him the chance to save a kid here in just a sec. I thought that was interesting because he wasn't really hiding out and he didn't seem scared. He was holding her hostage and like throwing knives at things. Yeah, nope. trying to intimidate her i guess i don't know this is where it gets really big because a lot of crazy

fantastical stuff has happened and you could i guess say covaldi didn't see it and that's why it's able to you know we're able to have mud monsters and faceless little girls the faceless little girl is now in covaldi's arms he can clearly see that she's faceless the mud monster reaches its arms under the door and across the entire house to grab the faceless little girl pulls her back breaking the door and swallows her and before Cavaldi's eyes becomes a gingerbread man eats its arm and runs away so how did they manage to make this happen now I just want to say so when all this is going on Cavaldi asks what is happening and he looks out and he from a distance sees Sasha with her face covered in mud that's all he sees to begin with then Angelica I have no idea why angelica does this she hits cavaldi and escapes the house but she is not trying to get away from cavaldi she's trying to save the little girl she hits cavaldi runs away to escape grabs the little

girl then gives her to cavaldi why why give her to cavaldi because he's the police i just like the guy holding her hostage that she's running away from why don't give sasha to her dad or someone. No, she gives them to Cavaldi because she wants Cavaldi to see her because she has set up this part of the con. Yeah, I mean, it's true. Her dad was, like, right there with a gun. So she could have just gave the kid to the dad. After she gives Sasha to Cavaldi, she specifically says, take her inside, then she closes the door. So at this point, Cavaldi can't see anything of the mud monster while it's, like, wandering around and getting shot. Like, all he could hear is gunshots and people, like, screaming and some sort of thing with, like, The mud monster making whatever noises it was making, I forget. The skin on Sasha's face is probably just some sort of a cured skin mask that Angelica would know how to create because that's her livelihood.

We see her doing that at the very first scene she's in. She is skinning a rabbit. Like she knows how to cure skin. She would know how to create something for Sasha. So they slapped leather on her face. Yeah. So the door is closed at this point. And the other people in the village are Angelica and the two actors. Like, how convenient that the two actors arrive just at this point when they need to do a lot of voice acting while Cavaldi is inside. What do you mean voice acting? Like, mmm, I taste good? Well, yeah, things like that, yeah. Cavaldi can only hear what's going on for some of this scene. And yeah, I think that maybe one of them does do the, mmm, I taste good part. Okay. Two arms reach under the door, grab Sasha from Cavaldi and pull her out, breaking the door in the process. Now, we've already been told how this could work. Like, oh, how does this work? Well, guess what? The movie told us.

Will and Jacob were pulled out of the inn at the very beginning by Cavaldi. This is them getting back at him for how he did this to them at the very beginning. Now, Will only noticed a rope wrapped around his foot because Jacob pointed it out. In this movie, it's very easy for people to just not see ropes, especially when crazy stuff is happening when angelica gives sasha to cavaldi she is attached there are like probably muddy ropes attached to her that cavaldi just doesn't notice and then they yank sasha out the door which is like probably a breakaway door that they sound painful to be yanked no no it's like a sugar glass door yeah i can i can actually go along with that once they start pulling the ropes they kind of rise up and he sees them covered in mud he's like mud arms i'm not sure how much cavalli can see of the rest of this scene i do know he would have a very limited view through

the broken door right well he is literally at the back of the house so whatever he sees is gonna be small and through a door i do think it's possible they have someone covered in mud who jumps around saying things like can't catch me and i taste good you know why else have it be a mud monster if this was really magic then the people make i'm talking about the people making the movie they would have had it be a gingerbread monster like they clearly wanted the only plausible explanation for the mud monster is that the villagers couldn't make a gingerbread monster mud is easy to find and can be brown and somewhat bread like so that's what they used fair enough like i see no other reason for it being a mud monster instead of a gingerbread monster other than the like the the filmmakers knew they were like okay these these people wanted to make a gingerbread monster but they couldn't and they're just working on what they got they got

a lot of mud they're just poor mud farmers like in monty python you're hurting your own theory the mud monster is cg they could have made bread if they wanted they chose mud well that's a pretty good explanation for what was happening there I mean I would love to believe Terry Gilliam put this in just to be weird but at the same time I'm like I know they had a lot of arguments with their producers maybe this was like originally they were going to do one of the actual Grimm fairy tales like the seven ravens or there's another one called the raven and then someone's like nobody knows that let's do the gingerbread man who did not do the gingerbread man is not by the brothers Grimm right like but clearly they were going to do something with ravens. There's especially no reason to have it be a mud monster. It's a gingerbread man. I do know that like Terry Gilliam delayed the release of this movie many, many times because he wasn't happy with what they were doing. Could have had

something to do with this extremely expensive CG sequence they probably had to make of a gingerbread man that wasn't supposed to be there. I don't know. He talked about it as if he wasn't the reason for the delay. He was specifically addressing the visual effect at the very end where the queen turns into a mirror and cracks like her face cracks he was like yeah that was one of the hardest effects we ever had to do it was really difficult right yeah and he said specifically thank goodness that the movie was delayed because that gave us the chance to actually do that effect like he acted like someone else delayed the movie and he was like oh good let's make use of this extra time so will and jake are using a pulley system to get jake up the tower How did they get that police system set up without actually first getting to the top of the tower? What's going on here? What's really happening here is that the Brothers Grimm are just setting up something they need for later in the tower.

Because this tower is going to be important for their long con. And then, just side note, when Angelica's dad arrives, Will just casually does like the most insane rock throw ever. Like, they couldn't even catapult someone up that high. He just casually throws this rock up into the window. Then it changes in a 90-degree trajectory, flies across the room, and hits the mirror. Yeah, that's a good throw. I think it's good evidence that this whole sequence inside of that tower doesn't really actually happen because the physics of it don't even make any sense. And I do think that this scene is sort of like their cover story they're making up to tell to Cavaldi later. And the reason why I believe that is because they need to make sure Cavaldi knows they weren't the ones kidnapping the girls, right? Right. They're like, we were doing all this crazy stuff. We set up a pulley system. We pulled ourselves up here. We fought a huntsman.

When Angelica's dad shows up, they just like have like a mock fight with him, easily beat him, which I don't even think that necessarily actually happens. I think they just grab Sasha, they're running back with her, and they're like, wait, what if Cavaldy asks why we didn't get killed by the forest? Note, the only people who ever get killed by the forest in this movie are Cavaldy's two soldiers. No one else gets killed by the forest, right? Like, I think that's a little strange. So they're just like, I don't know, quick, Angelica's dad, give us your axe. We'll just be like, it's an enchanted axe. And the forest won't kill us if we have an enchanted axe, right? And so they get back to the village with Sasha, lay her down in the middle of the town square on like a bench so everyone can see her and see they rescued her. As if to say like, hey, look, we're the good guys. We did rescue the girl, Cavaldi, that you were just like, you know, you didn't manage to save, right?

And then the French army shows up and Cavaldi comes out of the house with Angelica, who is now tied up in Gagged. Now, apparently, after that whole mud monster sequence, he stayed in that house and just tied Angelica up. Why? Yeah, no, he still suspected her. He's like, you did this. And then he's wearing the Grimm's armor. And when asked why, he says precautionary measure. Like, maybe I'm starting to believe in the magic, but, you know, maybe not. So the two actors, their names are Hidlick and Bunst. Yeah, the French army rides up with their heads. Here's an interesting thing. they were clearly supposed to leave and spread rumor and superstition among the french troops because that's what the french general says they were doing why would they have left to go do that the french army and just start being like hey guys i got a story for you seems like they would get the heck out of there either that or go back to the brothers grim right like maybe do their jobs

or leave not go to no but this is their job it's important that all the french believe that there is magic here and they were just trying to help with that but here's what's interesting the french general says we're gonna burn the forest everyone in the village is outraged yeah because all their friends are in that forest exactly but like without my theory why this forest has done nothing but terrible things to them the forest is killing them like and i thought this the first time i watched this movie as a kid i'm like why aren't they celebrating that the army is here and gonna burn down that horrible evil forest right and clearly it's because the entire town is in on the con like it's exactly what Cavaldi said. They lured the French army here to kill them in the forest. The forest is part of their plan, but now they're just going to burn the forest. That doesn't work. Cavaldi does apologize to the Brothers Grimm when they're going to burn them in the forest.

He's actually starting to kind of believe them at this point, right? Like he's starting to believe in the story they're telling. So when Angelica saves the two brothers who are about to burn up, she's wearing the wolf pelt, which makes sense according to your theory and only according to your theory because she needs to pretend to be a wolf right now yeah like to me this is absolute proof that they have been working together on the con the whole time and her dad has just been running around in a wolf pelt pretending to be a wolf as well but then she asks the brothers where they found that wolf pelt which makes me think maybe she's worried about her dad like she's like he was supposed to have this is he all right maybe so they escape into the forest they run into her dad and angelica's like father where have you been implying like dude we we need your help we have like other traps to set up then they kind of have a fight with the dad i think just because

they need to look beat up whenever the french arrive you know the next thing that happens that is crazy and needs an explanation is the only supernatural event that any french people ever witness yes all of a sudden the queen blows and all the fires go out like the massive forest fire that's raging it is gone how'd they do that that's pretty crazy this one is pretty hard to explain away but i want to point out the movie itself is telling us to question this event because right after it happens the general asks what kind of magic what tricks were meant to question this what kind of magic and what tricks did the brothers grim use here yeah the entire french army runs away in the deleted scene they're not only running away but the general is massacring them he kills like six people he's just shooting them and stabbing them like he took out most of his own army in the deleted version of that scene what scares the french army away was it one of the

truly terrifying supernatural events that would have like scarred you for life was it a spider horse? Was it a mud monster? Was it a mirror queen? No, it was just some smoke and some like fire going out, right? Like if magic really is real, why wasn't it something big and magical that scared the French? Why is it that the only supernatural thing the French ever saw was just fire going out? And putting out an entire forest fire just with a snap is pretty impressive. That's pretty magical. I mean, it is it is, I guess. But you know, it's not it's not a mud monster eating itself. I mean, that's scary. All right. So you think maybe they had like a bunch of people with billows set up blowing billows at the fire, which would have just made it bigger? Well, let's just talk about what we know about the Brothers Grimm. They have a lot of strange inventions. They have large mechanisms like catapults. We also know that they have

some sort of explosive device because later on the tower blows up. From the witch at the very beginning, one of their actor friends, he's like pulling on ropes that are making like the door shake and making noise, there's nothing that I can see that would have created the wind that was making the witch's robes and hair billow around her all malevolently. But I believe they do have some sort of device that we don't see that can create wind. And also the witch, she billows out as she's dying a whole bunch of some sort of smoke matter. I don't know what it is. I think it's possible that they created some sort of explosive blast like they do later when they blow up the tower that created wind and smoke that was able to extinguish the fire because the smoke, there wasn't enough oxygen for just a minute. Now, I know that sounds hard to believe, but it was actually just a very small section of the forest that was on fire. Now, like these people can move the trees and they

probably, like, I mean, Angelica's dad has an axe. They probably carved out a section of the forest so that the fire maybe wouldn't spread that far. I don't know. This is what I was going to offer as an explanation here is that what they probably did because they could have guessed that if the French army does get involved, they're probably going to burn down the forest. What they could have done is create what's called like a fire line or a fire control line where they just, and this is something that firemen actually do. If there's a fire coming, you cut off, you just cut out the forest, you cut out the grass, you cut out everything in front of the fire so that it won't spread to the forest behind that line. Right. and if they'd done that, it would have looked to the army like the fire was raging and then just kind of burnt out. But it would have taken hours still because they're trees, they're full of trees.

Yeah. Maybe they watched it for a few hours. Yeah, yeah. And then just got utterly terrified. What? Fires go out? Well, no, like you said, they made explosions and stuff, right? Right, yeah, yeah. It wasn't just the fire went out. The fire went out and there were explosions. Right, that's possible that they waited a while. The fires were going to go out anyway. Then they created some sort of big wind explosion with some noise and, you know, smoke. And then the fires were out and then, you know, the French got scared and ran away. Yeah, they find out that the brothers Grimm escaped. The general goes with Cavaldi and his helper who looks like a total sissy but turns out to be like a total psychopath. He's crazy. Like that guy was pretty surprising. He's like Cavaldi almost. He just wasn't featured very much. The general, he orders Cavaldi to execute the Brothers Grimm, and he refuses and resigns, at which point the general shoots him, and he dies.

Or does he? Right, right. No, he doesn't die. And this is just in the movie. He survives because the bullet hit the armor, the Brothers Grimm's armor, and then a tree grabs the general's leg, which allows him to get away. A root wraps around his leg, and he asks, Is this one of your tricks, Grimm? Now, I think that the actual answer to that question in this case is no. I think that his foot just got wrapped in a root. But because we see things as people expect to see them, just like with the dummy that was catapulted that Will saw as his brother, but it wasn't. I think he looks down, sees his leg tangled in a root, and then sees kind of like, oh, the root's moving. Is this one of your tricks, Grimm? So I think that's what's happening there. He just got tangled up in a root. Okay. But then they start to fight. And like you said, the psychopathic little helper dude goes nuts and just going ham on Jacob. He's going to murder him. And then Jacob throws the magic boomerang axe at him, misses, but then it comes back and kills him in the back. How could he manage that unless he actually had a magic boomerang axe?

Yeah, I mean, I think that Angelica's dad just axed him in the back. Yeah. He probably caught it and just threw it. He's so cool. I mean, dude, he's a total badass. Dude, no, we already know he can catch arrows. Yeah, we do. He caught that arrow in his mouth as a wolf. The general is fighting Will during the eclipse. He asks Will to beg, and Will starts to beg, but then tricks him with his flaming crucifix, which is a lot like all the other tricks they play to kill people. And he stabs him with a flag. Will assassinates the general. He just kills him. He just stabs him through with that flag, right? I don't think you can call it an assassination when they're fighting. Right, except you can if it was a big plan, and they planned to kill the general in this forest and lured him in there. Okay, so he kills the general. So you're saying that that was the whole reason that they were even here, was that they wanted to kill that man.

But then they've got to convince Cavaldi, because you can't get away with murdering a general. Now, they know Cavaldi is still alive because he's wearing their armor, and they know that it's bulletproof. So they both go up into the tower, and they just put on a show for him. Again, he can't see anything up there, right? He's down on the ground, like he's always been for pretty much everything. Don't stab me, brother. No, don't attack me. They're doing the exact same scene they did for the witch. Yes, the same thing they did for the witch. Right? Exactly. You know, and Cavaldi can just hear them. They didn't really have a plan from here. So they're just like, well, we got that script memorized. Let's do it again. Exactly, exactly. And then we hear these lines, like the queen saying, such love, such brotherly sacrifice. He's dying, Jacob. Well, don't look in her eyes. No, don't kiss her. And then they're all screaming.

This is all for Cavaldi to hear, right? They're putting on a radio play. Now, of course, in my version, I was thinking that Cavaldi really does get convinced. His acting becomes just very much more flamboyant. Like, he cradles the dying will in his hand as Will says, serve my queen, and then dies. And then, like, he's just, like, 100% in on the story now. He's like, demon queen, hear me. Swallow my curse from the dark heart of my ancestors. And then he screams, maledetta, three times. Like, either this guy 100% fully believes in magic now, Or he's just going to go along with the story and he realized what they were doing. It's because he knows what the brothers know, which is that they just murdered the French general and that they need to convince him. So he's like, all right. So then they self-destruct this giant tower. Then we get the whole ending sequence. They save all the kids. They've brought Cavaldi into their narrative, whether he really believes it or whether he's

just pretending to believe it. I don't know. No matter what, the only surviving and highest French official, even though he's Italian, in the area is now on their side and they have gotten away with murdering the French general. Angelica kisses Jake and she kisses Will and she's like, you're welcome back here anytime. And I think this is the point where we get like a clever reversal of that twin scene from the beginning where Will is seducing the twins. It's like, here we get the same situation where like Angelica's in love with both of these brothers and Will is finally going to get his threesome with his brother that he always wanted. No, it's good resolution to every character arc in this movie. And Will even starts to imply that he's like, we have a new set of skills. I think he's starting to imply they could do something else, but Jake kind of cuts him off. I think maybe Will is in on this too now.

He's like, hey, we took out the French general. We could like get rid of the rest of the French. Oh no, we could become assassins. I don't really know what else he was talking about. I guess he was saying writing. No, he's talking about political assassination. All right, yes, that's exactly what he's talking about. Oh, wait, wait. How many deleted scenes were there, Torvald? Dude, so this is something I wanted to mention just because I think it's cool. On at least the DVD that I have of this movie, there are exactly 12 deleted scenes, which corresponds to 12 kidnapped little girls and corresponds to 12 sacrifices that had to be made to bring this movie to life. They had to sacrifice 12 scenes just to get the movie out. I thought that was pretty cool. i mean that's cool it has to be it has to be terry killiam hey he'd probably do that yeah he produces dvds himself it really is an awesome con and it makes it a much better movie if you think about it like

this is so much cooler if you think that these two brothers are just scrambling and struggling to put on the world's greatest con for these french soldiers as the french soldiers like arrest them and force them to do stuff right like it's pretty cool dude yeah i think it really like puts it into that genre with like matchstick men and stuff where you know they were pulling the wool over your eyes the whole time and yeah if they had just revealed it at the end then i think people would have been like whoa and having said that i would encourage anyone listening to this podcast to actually go and re-watch the brothers grim uh it's actually a fun movie uh the acting's great and if you think about this theory while you're watching it you can actually see some of things we're talking about like these brothers are totally tricking the french soldiers and also while you're at it if you enjoyed this episode give us a like leave a review um it would really

help to get this podcast out to other people like if you like our podcast leaving a review is the best thing you can do to help other people to see it um that will really uh push us up in the rankings so we'd appreciate it you can follow us at popcorn isn't real yeah and if you agree or disagree with our theory you can talk to us on at popcorn isn't real like we're on there all the time so please please tweet at us let us know what you think or if you have any other theories that we should cover tell us music for this episode was provided by christine and remember the popcorn isn't real