With directors John Fawcett and Damon Santostefano

Hello, and welcome to The Popcorn Isn't Real. I'm Leif Eric, and I'm here with my co-host Torvald. This is the podcast where we focus on films and fan theories. Before we start talking about our real theory, I just want our listeners to feel a little bit how I feel right now, because I think that our listeners have no idea about the ride that we're about to embark on. Oh, it's going to be a good ride. well okay so we've covered some wild fan theories so let me just get this straight right off the bat as far as i understand you're about to take us on a journey somehow connecting the six cinderella story teenage rom-coms and the ginger snaps werewolf horror trilogy from early 2000 yes and the orphan black tv series from the 2010s yes you're going to connect all of these different properties and you're going to prove that this is one massive expanded universe where clones are being produced by the government and trained to become secret agents by living out

a staged cinderella fantasy have i understood this correctly yes i i don't think i need to do any more oh no you've proven my case right there all i can say is you're gonna have your work cut out for you. It actually hinges on the movie Ginger Snaps, which is a teenage war film. You might as well call it Hinger Snaps. I can prove that Orphan Black and Ginger Snaps are in the same universe. And extrapolating from there, I can then prove that Ginger Snaps and A Cinderella Story are in the same universe. We need to not only prove that the same actor is in two different series, but also prove in at least one of these series, the actor has a clone. I just want to point out that I think one of the main dots connecting many of these properties is the famed director, John Fawcett, who we might have the privilege of hearing from later in this episode. I'm here with an amazing writer, showmaker known for creating Ginger Snaps, as well as

amazing show Orphan Black. Welcome to the podcast, John Fawcett. Hello. Good to be here. Always been a fan of Ginger Snaps, and I loved Orphan Black. First, I wanted to ask how you came to create Orphan Black. Probably in a similar way that Ginger Snaps began. I mean, it really kind of usually begins for me with characters or a situation, a feeling or a genre that I want to work in and for Orphan Black you know what I had was I had this idea of a woman who is down on a sub it was a subway platform and she sees this woman acting weird and in in the original version she was looking across the tracks she wasn't on the same platform so it was more of subway in the original version and she is watching this woman take her shoes off and stuff like that and then sees that they make eye contact and it's her doppelganger basically and they lock eyes in the moment and just a moment later she jumps in front of a train and kills herself i think that

might have been all that i had i don't know if i even had the fact that she steals her purse i pitched that to graham manson and i had been talking about doing a feature together for quite a while we knew each other from the canadian film center and and this was back in probably 2001 in around the same time period that ginger snaps was coming out and i wanted to make another movie and i pitched him this idea and so i said and they see each other and he goes okay and then what And I'm like, I don't know. I didn't know that it was going to be clones. I didn't know if it was like some sort of sci-fi premise where this was an alien that looked like her, if it was another dimension, like where you're looking across time at each other. It took a long time to develop this, but years later, when we finally were in a position where we were going to try and get production partners, I pitched the opening scene.

And that's what hooked everybody. Everybody was like, God, what's that? And then you're like, it's clones. So that was kind of how it began anyway. I always say to people, watch Orphan Black. Just watch the first five minutes and you'll be hooked and you'll watch the rest. It's an amazing hook. I think it's probably one of the best pilots I've ever seen. Because it began in that time period, as Ginger Snaps was coming out, it grew out of the DNA of Ginger Snaps. All that stuff was very fresh in my mind. I still feel like Orphan Black is like a sibling to Ginger Snaps. So, I mean, we're going to jump all over the place, but I'm going to start with my theory for what this Cinderella clone program is. This is a clone training program where they take these young girls who have special skills that they have cloned, and then they use kind of these, my favorite subject, MKUltra mind programming kind of things on them, including

abuse from stepsisters and step parents. Oh, so all the abuse was stage two. Okay. Yeah, that's to program them, you know, to get them to sort of go have these dissociative states. And what they're trying to do is get their Cinderella clone close to someone who is rich and powerful. And they're pairing up their Cinderella clones with people who are rich and powerful, so that they can have a secret agent, essentially, in all the most powerful places in society. The prince doesn't know what's going on. He's the mark. Oh, wow. Okay. And the Cinderella herself probably doesn't know what's going on because she's kind of dissociated, right? They can activate her whenever they want and she'll do things, you know, maybe subconsciously that they've programmed into her. And she may be surrounded by other clones sometimes, as well as she always has a handler. You can call them a monitor as well. Someone who is in charge of that clone and doesn't let any secrets out to that clone, but just keeps an eye on them and keeps them doing whatever their mission is supposed to be.

Okay, okay. These programs come about in the series Orphan Black. So we're going to talk about kind of how the clone program works in Orphan Black and see how it could also work in the Cinderella story series. The first thing I need to prove, the hinge point of this entire universe. ginger snaps or fin black and ginger snaps are in the same universe ginger snaps the whole movie although being a movie about werewolves is actually an analogy for magical puberty um it's turning everyone's gonna get that reference um no the movie is basically uh it's about two teenage girls getting infected and becoming werewolves as they also go through puberty. Honestly, I will say that the analogy is much more cohesive in Ginger Snaps than it is in Turning Red. The analogy in Turning Red is just all over the place. Anyway, Ginger Snap. Two sisters have a very close bond, but they're kind of like goth emo sisters.

And then their life is turned upside down when the older sister gets bitten, infected by a werewolf and starts to become a werewolf. I always loved the metaphor of how, you know, werewolf is puberty, but it's not just puberty. It's like the idea that you grow apart from people as you get older. Your siblings change and there's nothing you can do about it, you know? And it's this feeling of how Bridget is so reliant on her sister, but as they become adults they have to become their own humans you know their own people and I love how Bridget has to become her own person and I think it's just a beautiful story. Thank you and I mean the emotional part of the story was a really was really really important to us it is something that really allows people to embrace the monster and I not just embrace it but like identify with it in a lot of monster movies you it's very hard to like have any kind of emotional

attachment to a monster or to someone who is becoming a monster but the the sister bond and the sister the you know the betrayal and the separation and the love between the two of them is was always kind of key what was their little pact um 16 or dead in the scene together forever out by 16 or dead in the scene but together for fucking ever now none of this is going to make any sense unless we also talk about what orphan black is about it is about a group of people who find out they all look the same they're all played by amazing actor tatiana maslany dude she is so amazing and she's so good in all those roles they find out that they are clones there is a company called neolution that created them and is trying to use them to create body part replacement for body modification for like healing factor wolverine style they created 264 clones and then adopted these orphans out to different people and they assigned each one of these clones a monitor which is a person who

watches over them and occasionally like messes with them they all have a genetic defect that will manifest at some point and cause them to die usually in the female clones it has to do with their uterus uterine cancer or whatever almost all clones except two cannot have kids the project that created all these Tatiana Maslany clones is called Project Lida. Find out in season three, there's a project called Project Castor that cloned a bunch of boys. There's boy clones running around. And unfortunately, I think Tatiana Maslany is an amazing actor. Not to speak ill of the actor who plays the boy clones, but he's not very good. And all the boy clones have exactly the same personality and voice and hair so they're all kind of the same except for one named ira who's kind of a nerd at least they dated him a little different but the boy clones all have a similar genetic defect where their brains melt like out their nose and they die

no the boy clones really suck and by the end of the third season when they get introduced almost all of them are dead there's like maybe two left and by the end of the series those two are also did i always just because he's jordan gaveris is amazing as felix i always wanted to see what would happen if there were felix clones and he got to play other kinds of characters and i wonder if that was ever an idea you guys talked about can you imagine if there was felix like the show would have been so good yeah this would have been like the show was really great but like the show would have been like up there if we'd have gone for the felix clones i think there was there was a point where we discussed it yeah but it was just like because we did we did need we knew that we needed male clones in the show we we knew that when we knew it from a ways out but we were not always like who is it and and i think that there was long discussions about it being jordan but

that we wanted to preserve that character and not let everything become too insane around sarah that like there was some sense of stability by the fact that she just had one brother not a whole bunch of brothers and that being said jordan could have knocked that one out of the park jordan could have done like like he could have done easily done 10 different characters and you believed every single last one of them he's he's a wonderful actor and such a great human being so i wish we could do that as kind of maybe we should do that as a spinoff yeah the felix clones and felix suddenly realizes that he's been cloned you know i think it would just be amazing to see like you know felix because he's so flamboyant you know and then to see him playing like a super masculine macho character or something like that it's just a contrast would be fun but that makes me super happy to hear you say that it was considered because when i was watching the

season where they reveal i think it's the end of season two they reveal the male clones and it shows one from behind so you don't see the face and i grabbed my wife i was like it's felix it's gonna be felix it's gonna be felix and then he turned around and it wasn't felix but i said to i was like i bet i bet they considered felix so that makes me happy but in that when we were working on the show we considered every insane option all the time like of all the storylines we were like what is the weirdest craziest direction we could go in how do we do like what do you think and we'd read like fan theory and we'd be like okay this is what the fans are theorizing so we can't do that do the opposite we have to go the other direction so we were always trying to dodge fans you you made my day by telling me that but one thing that is important to know about all these clones is they have a high penchant for violence you're damn right

yeah wow that's a good good quote just waiting for any time where i could emphatically agree with you. Damn right. Let's say it a few more times. Let's rewind it. Say it again. You're damn right. You're damn right. Sorry. You're damn right. There you go. I figured out how to do an American accent. They are very violent. They have violent tendencies. Some of the scientists talk about, well, this is kind of troubling that they all have these violent tendencies. One of them, Allison, the soccer mom clone, even though she's supposed to be like this nice soccer mom, they have fun showing her violent tendencies throughout the series at one point she ties up her husband and burns him with a hot glue gun to like torture him to get him to talk it turns out even though she seems like the most you know normal put together soccer mom one she's one of the craziest of the clones but not the craziest the craziest clone is named helena

helena's the best character in the show because she is like the knuckles of the show oh she is a trained assassin and a psychotic former cult member she was raised by like a catholic convent and then like a ukrainian assassin and then like a weird north american puritanical cult and they bleached her hair as like a punishment at this catholic orphanage when she was like 10 and for some reason it stayed bleached the rest of her life it's like that permanent kind of bleats okay she's psychotic she'll kill anyone who she thinks is against her and she's insanely good at killing and every single season is just this almost infuriating wait while they say no no don't let helena go in there she'll kill everyone until you're just waiting like just let her kill everyone it would solve all your problems finally in like the second to last episode of every season the gloves come off they send helena in and she kills everyone

and resolves the problem oh man they have to come up with a lot of crazy excuses for why they need like let's send helena over here to this farm now helena's pregnant you know helena had an interesting just trajectory as a character to like just to begin with because you know from the get-go she was an assassin she was always kind of the bad guy and you know it's funny because helena even though we knew that that how sarah and helena are related that kind of grew out of this desire to kind of have helena be understood yeah like you know like it's one thing to see her like murdering and killing and being afraid of her. Like she's a scary antagonist, but then why is she doing the things that she's doing? And really like it became this kind of mission to kind of understand her and go, you know, maybe she was just came from a really bad, had a really bad childhood. Maybe if she just got some therapy and some medication, she could be like a normal

person. You know, maybe if we loved her a little bit, like she wouldn't be a murderer, but at the same time be absolutely terrified that she could go off at any moment and we liked her and we let tat was doing crazy things like it was funny because the whole eating food thing yeah like was something that tatiana just did it wasn't in the original script like she just sat down and started eating like doing this we're eating the muffin and that was not in the script that was just tatiana that we thought that was hilarious and then we were like get helena food whenever we can get her allow her to eat food like in every scene we possibly can because it's funny their children the two who can have children which is sarah and helena those are the only two who can have children their children have a healing factor and sometimes telepathic powers but whoa things are getting good they have a healing factor that neolution wants

so the important takeaways from this from orphan black is that their neolution started this but there are lots of offshoot offshoots there's project lita there's project castor so even if neolution is gone by the end of season five of orphan black there could be other offshoots that are also doing cloning stuff and i think that is very reasonable within the universe of orphan black because there's just in every season there's some new random organization that shows up whether it's a cult or a company or a crazy scientist or like an island of dr moreau my favorite part was when sarah looks at the camera and she says it's orphan time dude i like that part too oh it's good you know at the very very end of the series last episode of season five helena takes out her diary she's got like a ukrainian accent she's like i have been writing in my diary our story i have titled it orphan black and she's like but why orphan black and helena says well because we

are all orphans and then allison is like but we're not black and then it cuts to credits back to ginger snaps now i believe that the fitzgerald sisters the main characters of ginger snaps Bridget and Ginger. Contrary to what you might believe from the title, Bridget is the main character, not Ginger. Yeah, I know. It confused me the first time I watched it, and it confused me this time. Well, because Bridget doesn't snap, so they couldn't call Bridget snaps. So near the beginning of the movie, Ginger and Bridget are coming home, and Ginger says, God, I hate our gene pool. And perhaps that could be a little hint that it's because they're clones. whoa that's crazy because i didn't see any hints whatsoever that they were clones oh oh there's a lot but they're not both clones of the same person right they're they're no no different people okay clones of different they're actually clones of two sisters who lived in the

1800s uh which we'll get to oh wow their mother says near the beginning that they are three years late menstruating it's not normal and i gotta point out that is not normal because they're like It's because they've got womb cancer. Right. For female clones, there seems to be some sort of defect in the cloning process, as we learned from Orphan Black, that messes up especially the female reproductive organs, and they don't seem to work correctly. It's true. None of the clones are fertile except for Sarah. That's what sets her apart, is that she can have, she has babies. Clones who live in suburbs have sort of a tendency to murder people and then cover it up. As we saw with Allison, the clone in Orphan Black, she did that. And Ginger and Bridget murder a young woman from their school and they try very badly, I might add, to cover it up and hide the body. Yeah, they just like leave her fingers in the yard.

What are they doing? They knew they ripped off her fingers. I don't even understand how they got in the yard. We don't need those. The main, the smoking gun, the connection between Orphan Black and Ginger Snaps is that Allison, the soccer mom clone, lives in a suburb called Bailey Downs. Now, Ginger and Bridget live in a suburb called Bailey Downs. In the theory, the wolf that bites Ginger was created by Neolution. Now, how do we know this? Well, we know that Bailey Downs is just north of Toronto. Toronto is the home of the Dyad Institute, where they do experiments. We know that Neolution would have been around in 1999 because P.T. Westmoreland, or actually John Matthiessen, sort of founded the company in the 60s. And according to the wiki, I don't know if this is true, maybe you can weigh on it, but the Dyad group has been around since 1918. There's probably a valid argument to be made.

Dr. Leakey's influence at Dyad brought in transhumanism. And transhumanism is the desire to grow a tail. The transhumanist movement probably could have created this monster. And I do agree. Dyad is in Toronto. Bailey Downs is a fictional suburb in Toronto, north of Toronto. I like your north of Toronto thing. I'm down with this. And we put Bailey Downs in both Orphan Black. It began in Ginger Snaps and wound up in Orphan Black. One of the interesting notes of this, all of this, is that in season one, Graham was running the writing room. Him and I had kind of come up with a number of things to do with season one. But in that original writer's room was Karen Walton, who wrote Ginger Snaps, the original screenplay. is a werewolf in town you know terrorizing apparently for quite a while because like this is a it's a known issue that dogs are getting eaten i have two questions about that werewolf one

who was it or where did it come from was it a clone and number two why was that one only eating dogs because like ginger only goes after one tiny dog and then she's like no it's humans from now on i'm going after people first werewolf never even hurt a person well it hurt ginger okay yeah we know that john fawcett created both and john fawcett clearly sees these two as a shared universe or why would he put bailey downs in both he never explains the existence of that first werewolf the one who initially bites ginger and then gets hit by a truck or a van at the beginning of the movie i think that's because he knew he was going to explain it later on in orphan black it was definitely human i don't recall thinking through like who was this dude who attacked her in the woods but i think there it could be valuable to have that discussion now just backing up to who attacks ginger in the woods one of the that has kind of

become a real thing in terms of thinking about this as a bigger universe for a television series, for example. So, you know, as we're, we've been kind of looking at, at building this into a television series, that notion of maybe it didn't really matter who attacked her in the feature film from a story point of view it was just it was a mysterious encounter with this with this creature in the tv series it's actually important and is much more intrinsic to the plot we know that bailey downs is just north of toronto we know that toronto has the headquarters of neolution with a building called the dyad institute now i don't know if the dyad institute had necessarily been totally built back in 1999 when the the Fitzgerald sisters were were in Bailey Downs probably Neolution existed right it didn't it's not just some pop-up some startup company it's been around at least since the 60s because that's when we find out that Susan Duncan one of

the founders founded along with P.T. Westermore this is a crazy company that does crazy things you you remember our life of pie and spider-man episode this is like if richard parker had started a company it would be neolution like orphan black has some crazy stuff they have a guy who has a tail that ends up getting cut off which is very similar to the tail that almost cut off in ginger snaps did your experience directing a movie where you had to create a prosthetic moving tail help when you came to orphan black i i suppose it did i mean i didn't specifically direct that episode with the tail chopping but i was definitely around as we were designing the tail it was graham that came up with the idea that the neolutionists should have a tail and i was like that's a that's an idiotic idea i love it um and i don't know if we were at the time drawing comparisons to Ginger Snaps but then again Karen Walton was in the writer's room

so I don't know where how this actual where the idea came from I just know that in the original Ginger Snaps yeah there's some horrifying moments with discovering that your sister is growing a tail and and this like wiggly thing and like wanting to cut it off because there is a scene where Ginger is freaking out in the bathroom and literally is cutting her tail off. It's a fairly disturbing scene. There's a lot of blood. It's very, you know, it's a good scene. Yeah, it's a good scene. On this island of Dr. Moreau they go to, there's like a freaking werewolf on the island. They keep saying it's a bear. So in the last season of Orphan Black, Sarah goes to this island and there's like something growling and attacking her and scratching her oh but then she would become a werewolf right well this is this guy's a little bit different they keep calling it a bear but then when we finally see it

it's just a guy no they keep acting like it's a monster i think maybe they didn't have the budget to make him look like a monster because he's just kind of a guy who's maybe slightly larger than and just like attacks pigs and eats them but he has unique dna and he was one of the first people they experimented on back in the 60s because something unique about his dna i think it's plausible that a pt collected a werewolf back in the 1800s that some of that dna may have found its way into this guy like he was you know clearly pt's been messing around genetically you know and this something went awry here who knows what genetic mutation is in this in this poor dude i think it's not too much of a stretch when we know they're already in the same universe because of bailey downs to say that maybe neolution was doing experiments already at the dyad institute in toronto and the werewolf was created because they were trying to find this healing factor

we know that ginger heals quickly when she is cut or scratched by the werewolf her her cuts heal very quickly now everyone who gets uh cut by a werewolf they heal quickly so that makes sense exactly and in ginger snaps unleashed the second one bridget who is now also turning into a werewolf keeps cutting herself and then timing how long she didn't cure herself turns out the cure is not very effective no it makes sense kind of makes sense like boil some flowers and then inject it into their veins yeah bridget cuts herself and then she times how long it takes her to heal well this is very similar to season five of orphan black where a little girl named kira who has a healing factor cuts herself and then times how long it takes her to heal well kira is the like she's the macguffin she's the thing neolution keeps trying to get she's sarah manning's daughter and it's because of her healing factor i always wondered if this was a deliberate like easter egg

gosh it's so funny um i don't think so it must have been a subconscious thing because the whole concept of kira all came out of the out of the aftermath of ginger snap so who knows so it's clear that me elution really wants this healing factor i believe that they did experiments earlier on in the 90s that resulted in some sort of feral creature similar to the one on the island even if it wasn't all hairy and werewolf like that escaped from the diet institute into toronto and ended up north in bailey downs and was eating dogs because people just leave their dogs out. But it didn't attack humans because it's not that mean. Well, because it only attacks at night. And people aren't out at night. Okay, I get it. Now, one thing I always loved is that werewolves in this universe are not supernatural. Sam says, see now biology, that's something you can sink your teeth into, so to speak. I didn't really want to make a fantasy werewolf. I hadn't

seen anything done that I liked. The only good werewolf movie at the time was American Werewolf in london that was it everything else was crap so all of the influences for ginger snaps came from other places they didn't come from werewolf movies i would definitely say that we leaned into like some david cronenberg like the fly and you lean into things like that you are kind of like starting to embrace science more than magic or mythology perhaps it came from something real and then just kind of like turned into this like fantastic story but it actually may have come from something real to begin with i believe that pam their mother who they never call mother they call her pam oddly enough they they call their dad dad but yeah i guess they like him more than pam i believe that she is their monitor their handler she is very dedicated to them she's she's gonna to skip down with them right well she has a contingency already planned out she finds the

fingers and she's not even surprised like the dad who finds them is just like oh oh pam just picks them up it's like oh don't worry you know these are just one of their props even though she knows they're not like she covers so well she's not even shocked i i honestly like expected her to take a bite of the finger and be like it's just corn syrup just like ginger had done in the previous scene with the blood i really expected her to do it but of course she didn't she immediately has a contingency plan pam does no hesitation whatsoever she's like okay i'm gonna pick up bridget i'm gonna pick up ginger tomorrow first thing i'm gonna let the house fill gas and we'll light a match we'll start fresh just us girls leaving dad behind he'll just blame me they all will she she seems to take personal responsibility probably because she's their handler she was supposed to keep them under control and she didn't yeah and you don't think

it could possibly just be because she loves her daughters okay yes she does love her daughters she's raised them but at the same time i don't think most moms would jump to i'll let the house fill with gas and light a match tomorrow morning right yeah but they think that's a very extreme reaction absolutely but i think john fawcett did clearly take steps to imply that this mom is like desperate for a connection with her daughters and as soon as they're having their period she's like yes yes yes period we can talk about this and as soon as they're like asking about boys she's like oh i'll tell you all about boys right right well but also because she's their monitor and she's got to be interested in when they have their that's true yeah she just wants to connect with them about anything because she's supposed to relay back to neolution any biological things that happen with them that's yeah no no parent could possibly take an interest in their

children this has to be a conspiracy we thought pam was this was this big ditz who had no clue what was going on and by the end of the movie we realized pam knows a lot more than we thought she did and pam's smarter than we thought she was this is a like an emotional moment where she's being vulnerable essentially saying she's responsible for for this behavior somehow like she messed up as a parent but then is kind of excited about the fact that they can start over they can ditch the dad and it can just be the girls and we can rock off into the sun i i think she just wants to spend time with her daughters and and now they have something in common whereas before they had nothing in common at all even though it's illegal as criminal we could all be together and i think that there is something there's something sad and tragic about pam and i wish that we had like maybe there had been another answer for pam like i wanted to take pam

with us somehow coincidences seem to abound in this universe because it is a pretty big coincidence that these two girls who are clones made by this company would happen to be the exact people who get accidentally infected by the werewolf, who is also a genetic product of this company, which just happened to be loose in this town. I believe that the werewolf was actually attracted to them by smell, not just because Ginger was on her period. We know from Orphan Black Season 5 that when they find someone with unique DNA, they keep that person and try to harvest that DNA with with whatever is special about it i believe that they originally got the dna to create this werewolf that heals when they were experimenting with the healing factor they got it from the original fitz sisters who were werewolves back in the 1800s i think that it was attracted to them because it smelled like like them it was like from their same it's it's another clone of them

basically okay and they try to activate in the movie are healing of the fitz sisters from the 1800s yeah oh wow that's another really good evidence and ginger snaps back the beginning there are two people in like the 1800s who look exactly like the fitzgerald sisters and their last name is fitzgerald so they look exactly like them it's not just they're their ancestors or something they are clones of them they're exactly the same they're the same actors right like this isn't a coincidence in a universe where we know bailey downs is in orphan black where there are clones if you find two other people who look exactly like two other people they've got to be clones yeah yeah i think if pt westmoreland was alive back then which i'm not sure if he was or not well it's actually a little confusing because there was an original pt westmoreland who was born like late 1800s, I think. And then John Matthiessen takes over his persona

and pretends to be him still alive hundreds of years later or something. It's a little, it's hard for me to even follow that. Yeah. I think that I like the concept of the clones being from 1800. I've never really considered that those were clones. But you're right. I think that that could be clones. They could be identical clones. I just never really heard that theory before. When we were kind of deciding to do a prequel for Ginger Snaps, I just thought I was going to make it Bridget and Ginger, and I was not going to explain anything. I just wasn't going to say anything about it. I was going to put the same actors in it. We were just going to do it. It's going to be a different origin movie. It's not their ancestors. Who knows what that is? Luckily, you've got fans to explain it. Yeah, that's a good thing. I have nothing but gratitude for this. A lot of the time when you're creating these kinds of absurd concepts,

sometimes you need some fan logic. I always did love Ginger Snaps at the beginning for its... What would it be like if Bridget did decide to go with Ginger? Because I think that's what everyone kind of wonders watching the original Ginger Snaps is maybe they could have been happy together. And we get to see that in this alternate take. It's true, right? Both of the Fitz sisters get infected by a werewolf in Ginger Snaps Back. If they're werewolves, and also they killed a whole bunch of people, then they didn't procreate and have children. Then they're not the ancestors of the Fitzgerald sisters, right? It doesn't make any sense. So what are they trying to say? I guess they're saying they're clones. And I think that werewolves just live for a long time. So I think at some point, Neolution discovered these werewolves and their healing factor and started trying to experiment on them, creating clones.

One escaped and sought out its other two clones living in Bailey Downs up north. That poor werewolf that got hit by a truck was a clone of Ginger. I think it might have been, yes. I see no other explanation. She wasn't attacking Ginger. She was just like saying hello. She was like licking her like, oh, I'm so happy to see you. Just licking hello with her claws. Yeah, I mean, she's a werewolf. Like, it's hard for the whole time. How else are you going to do it? Now, this brings us to Ginger Snaps Unleashed. This is the second movie. We find out that Bridget, if she keeps injecting herself with wolf's bane extract, she won't turn into a werewolf, but she has to keep doing it. And she's still kind of changing. She's kind of growing hairs. She's healing faster. Her ears are getting pointy. She ends up unconscious and wakes up at a hospital. Bridget is being asked by the therapist, what is your best case scenario for

how you want life to be. Bridget just glares at her and then slowly says, my best case scenario is hair everywhere except my eyeballs. Elongation of my spine. A growing taste for feces and then excruciating death. In response to this, the therapist writes down lesbian and underlines it three times.

The great therapist. Oh, man, that's really good. Lesbian? That's what lesbians do. Get really hairy and love feces. I don't know how she came to that conclusion. Part of this hospital is like helping girls who are junkies. They think Bridget is a junkie because she overdosed on something. And they're like, but I've never seen this drug before. And they test it. And they're like, this isn't a drug. It's a toxin from a plant. It's poisonous. It should have just killed her. She shouldn't be hooked on it. And it's not a drug. It doesn't get you high. So why is she taking it? That's kind of funny. The important thing in Gendersnaps Unleashed is at this hospital, Bridget meets a creepy little girl with blonde hair named Ghost. I believe that Ghost is a clone because she has a tendency for violence. She seems like a cute little girl, but actually the reason she lives at this hospital is because

she burned her grandmother who was taking care of her and her grandmother is now in the burn ward and she eventually takes bridget back to her house i actually like this movie but the ending is just not very satisfying the end of the movie is her trapping bridget in her basement and saying that bridget is now going to turn into a werewolf and become her attack dog that she's just going to sick on people every night oh wow anyway happy ending that's that was and that's the end of the series too that's the last one that's it the reason i believe that ghost this creepy little girl is a clone is because we know this is in the same universe as orphan black and ghost is played by a young tatiana maslany the person who plays all the clones yeah that's the girl from black so she is one of these clones from project lida who ended up being taken care of by her quote-unquote grandma yeah she's definitely a clone like that that's that's very

good uh very good evidence she's very similar to helena in a lot of ways with her blonde hair and craziness so i think that's good and that would also kind of maybe that explains helena's straight teeth because of the braces that ghost had i could definitely see that these two are related both murderers i think they look fairly similar too yeah it's uncanny that's so funny so so that was a that was where i met tatiana for the first time obviously was i didn't know tatiana she auditioned uh um and at the time it was her and it was ellen page who's now Elliot Page those were the two and and and Elliot had been in Juno Tatiana I hadn't seen her in any I don't remember that she'd been in anything but Tatiana was the one that we fell in love with for the for this part and then we all kind of sort of stayed in touch with her and then years later here she comes like it was like 10 years later when we were auditioning for

for orphan black and i remember when she showed up to her callbacks her network callbacks and which is a really i don't know if you know anything about the audition process but the network callbacks are a big deal that's where like anybody any of the executives show up like this is like you've gone through a bunch of auditions and now you've gotten to the final stage the the last thing and all the network people show up it's usually a room of like 20 people. And it's very intimidating. I would say it's intimidating even for me, but I can imagine being on the other side of this where you're an actor showing up in a room and she rollerbladed to her audition. Like she didn't get a gun Uber or a drive or anything. She showed up like super sweaty, like on a pair of rollerblades and then, and got herself fixed up red lines and then went on and did her thing like that was that that's kind of the epic story of that the fact that she

rollerbladed her callbacks to me is that speaks volumes about who tat is and just and just the fact that she was just there to just oh she's just been open in a free spirit you know and that that's how she is as fantastic as she is i think when i said like that was a crazy thing you did like why just even knowing that you're going to be drenched in sweat like you know wreck your face and your makeup and your hair and she's like i just wanted all of that pressure to go away and when i work out doing something physical i don't think about all the pressure i don't know that i would have done that but like and it's interesting because she was so young looking like even when we cast her as ghost she she was probably 17 or 18 but looked like she was 12 by the time she rolled in for orphan black she had never actually played an adult character she'd only played teenagers it was exciting to just have this little reunion you know that she was a ginger snaps and

she was a part of and she was obviously she is orphan blacks she had went from never playing an adult role to playing you know 10 adult roles all at the same time exactly well i i'm so glad you cast her i mean obviously everyone who's watched orphan black knows this but she's amazing just just amazing me and graham and tatiana were a real force like we were really tight and really like loved each other and got along she would come go away and come back with things that she would pitch us ideas essentially and voices and she was a big part of creating all those clone characters what do you think do you think it's possible that the fitz sisters were clones and that the werewolf came from the diet institute honestly now all i want to do is go away and write the actual mashup version where these two like i want to like have both living in the same world and make one show out of it i really want to i want to make it i want to bring it all together

i want to give people real answers because it's clear that you've hit upon the secret truth and i think it would be good now to just let the like let people actually truly enjoy it like you know and and really follow it through with everything that has now been exposed awesome thank you and you're halfway there but i mean the bailey downs connection well so i have read this bit of trivia on imdb and maybe you can tell us if it's true lucy lawless did the voice of the pa system at the school is that correct she did that's awesome i was like the thing is so i was lucy can you just do this hilarious cameo for me i just want you to do the voice on all that on and she read it in a weird voice and i was like i don't want you to read it like and she went she just recorded it that way and then she was like here you go what do you think i was a little disappointed because i wanted you to be able to recognize yeah so i just wanted her to read it normal and she read it like in a kind

of a weird voice and but yes it's lucy lawless yeah that's awesome i worked for sam ramey and rob tappert's company and so i was yeah i was often surrounded by lucy lawless memorabilia in rob's office did you ever get to meet her i didn't no i didn't i got she's like one of my favorite humans yeah yeah she's like she's so she's awesome like she's one of my favorite humans on the planet i'm sure it makes sense to you but to me i'm just like lucy lawless she's from new zealand what's she doing in a canadian indie horror film i directed many many episodes of xena warrior princess i seem to recall that i was directing in new zealand either right before i made Ginger Snaps or right after and I know that when I was there I was telling them like I have this movie that I'm making as well there was a bunch of tricks that I learned in in making Xena that I like used in Ginger Snaps and then as we were fishing up Ginger Snaps I think I was back

in New Zealand and that's why I was asking Lucy can you be or would it was that time period yeah oh wow that's crazy i'll have to go and watch your episodes because i love so i started directing in i want to say season five but it could have been season four and i did this episode that got banned it was quite violent i guess and and not my fault it was in the writing it had some portrayals of Hindu gods that I guess some people didn't enjoy. Okay. Didn't enjoy. And so there was a bit of a backlash against the episode and as a result the broadcaster took it off the air. I like to think that like it was, you know, the fact that it was too violent and too extreme. That was, eventually it did get aired with a disclaimer. Yeah. The episode is called The Way and because rob liked it so much he hired me to do the season opener of the next season called fallen angel so fallen angel is is the season opener that which was you know every episode of xena

it was just whack like totally rob rob tappert was like pushing it in crazy directions and it was hilarious fun to do the show that's awesome i when i was working for for ghost house for sam and rob they were making or they were shooting ash versus the evil dead in new zealand yes and so i got to you know be a part of that something that i always thought while i was watching orphan black i just love the parent trap style swapping that's my favorite aspect of the show the drama ends all the conspiracies end they're just living in bailey downs i always wanted just like a sitcom style show of just tatiana maslani having to switch places with her sisters for weird stupid reasons lie to husbands lie to girlfriends i wonder if you guys ever kind of had that idea you want to do that like well i'm just all i want is tatiana to agree to come back like and do a 10-year like you know all the clothes i want to see what the clones are doing

10 years from now and there's no big conspiracy going on anymore everyone's just living their lives yeah and and i want to see what they're doing so can you convince tatiana to do that make that i'll try you have you have any poll with her i don't i don't i'm really trying to convince her that it's a good idea yeah i did want to ask you if there's anything i don't know if you can say anything but if there's anything you could say just about what you're working on or anything about the gingersnaps show i don't know i can say that gingersnaps the tv series is a hot property right now for us it's and it is fully something that is consuming our focus trying to kind of get that to be we've been keen on making it as a tv series for some time and it's it's been a journey but it is definitely fully uh of the focus of things right now and for me for myself i'm going to do the the netflix may martin show called tall pines oh may martin is doing a limited series

so that's what i spend a little bit of my summer doing tall pines i'll look out for that one for sure well thank you john it was really a pleasure to to get to meet you and to to talk you're off about ginger snaps and orphan black nice to meet you too life that is it for orphan black was that it for ginger snaps as well wait sorry that's it for ginger black good old ginger black that's it for both ginger snaps and orphan black okay there we go that made a little sense oh mr gilter's walk mr gilter's alleged walk the next thing we need to do is somehow connect this to another Cinderella story. That's the hard part. It was easy connecting Orphan Black and Gender Snaps, obviously. Yeah, yeah. The connection is not a Cinderella story, the first one in the series, but another Cinderella story, the second one in the series. Now, this was directed by Damon Santo-Stefano. And we are joined today by director filmmaker

Damon Santo-Stefano. Welcome to our podcast. Greetings, gentlemen. Thank you for having me. So I had a chance to check out some of your podcasts and noticed that in February, you interviewed Michael Ferris. We did, yeah. Who I have known for 30 years. Whoa, really? He actually wrote with his partner the screenplay for the very first movie I directed. And then I hired him and his partner on multiple movies after that. And he's amazing. Very articulate guy. No, we love talking to Michael Ferris. He was great. I had no idea that you'd worked with him. Yeah, me neither. I missed that. That Catwoman story is pretty harrowing. I remember him telling me that story as it was happening. I was just like, I'm so sorry. I mean, he accepted the Razzie, so. Did he really? Yeah, he did. Yeah, he went to the award ceremony. No way, she didn't go. She did. She did. She went. And she apologized for being in that movie.

No, I don't. She did, yeah. I'm so sorry. You can watch it on YouTube. Oh, Jesus. Okay. Oh, man. Another Cinderella story. How's the song? Tell me, tell me something I don't know, something I don't know. Hey, this sounds like it's going to be great evidence. I just, no, this is just a random note. I love how not only does that song start the movie, but characters throughout this movie keep saying, Tell me something I don't know. Keep saying that. You were paying a lot more attention than I was. Say that. I mean, sorry. What I meant to say was, dude, tell me something I don't know. Come on. I actually like another Cinderella story better than a lot of the others. I thought it was fun. I really like the stepmom, Dominique. yeah i just have to say that i fully believe that her stepmom like is a military trained like agent woman um because of the way she acts and talks like when the first thing she says to her

stepdaughter in the movie is like most girls would kill to be you do you feel that that's me choking you i'm choking you from a distance choking you she's got an edge to the things that she says but also we know she's like a military woman because she is played by the the woman who played calhoun from wreck it ralph yes jane lynch yeah most famous for being in glee the show but yeah no no calhoun from wreck it ralph you know i think that her backstory was already in the screenplay and it needed more and it needed enhancement and it needed a complete tone but we really didn't have that until we cast Jane I pitched Jane to Warner Brothers and they said that's sounds perfect let's see if she's available and thank god she was because the thing about Jane is she is a master improviser you know she comes from that school of actors who we've all made those improvised movies together, Christopher Guest's movies. And so she was really

great at reading scenes and then pitching jokes. How about if I try this? And how about if I say this instead? And so choking you from a distance, she invented that. And then as soon as she started on a roll, I'd go do another one. Okay, do one about monkeys. Now do one about... And she would just go on and on and on. It was amazing. And then that's gold. You can go in the cutting room and just create you know the funnier version of it my first evidence that perhaps selena gomez is a clone in this cinderella program is that she is a dancer and a singer and a skateboarder and an orphan who lives in a laundry room it's like she was designed in a lab to be the most awesome cool main character girl oh wait she was designed in a lab hey she's a clone you're right it couldn't be that she was just written that way because she's in a movie i think that like orphan black they kind of designed them all to have special skills

in orphan black it's never stated but kind of implied cosima is like ridiculously smart helena is like an insane assassin sarah is you know a grifter who can trick people into doing things but not very well no they're honestly sucks okay as far as the cinderella story to another cinderella story goes i can easily buy that selena gomez's character is being put through some strange training program since she seems to be like some sort of social pariah who they're forcing to attend dance lessons all alone behind a one-way mirror so that no one has to see her but she can like mimic all of their actions and that's a very symbolic scene you've got the symbolism of the mirror dissociating is often described as going through the looking glass you know they say they use like alice in wonderland as as like a trigger to get people to dissociate so she is through the looking glass she's on the other side of the mirror here wild and even though it's not

a mirror for her she is acting as if it is a mirror because she's doing exactly what the guy is doing mirroring him that celebrity dancer dude is so into that mirror he is all over that mirror he's like making love to that mirror in front of everybody because selena gomez is doing her job well i think he can't see what they're he sees himself exactly he sees himself and that's how they're going to get him to fall in love with her because they know that mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery and that's why they're subconsciously instilling her she's dissociated in this scene obviously like if you just look at her the way she's dancing like she's clearly out of it and they're they're teaching her like subconsciously mimic this guy be what this guy once yeah there's that moment there's that moment that i asked drew to do where he senses somebody on the other side of the glass there it is mind control by selena the clone

there that's where the the temporal synchronous injection went right into his brain i can see it regardless of theory though that is a really good scene and i applaud the choreography there yeah michelle johnston choreographed it and had the idea of the mirror brilliant in my opinion it completely reinvented what that scene was going to be in a way that was like the showstopper you needed yeah what we didn't know was that selena could actually use a microwave signal through the glass to penetrate joey's brain to make him suddenly sense that she's there and as soon as he sensed her and he was sentient to the wave he became under her control that's exactly what happened that's that's it so then we didn't even know whether you were directing it but now now it all make sense because one of the next scenes where he he doesn't know what she looks like or does she um and he exactly there's that dinner table scene she's serving and he's getting this

sense that he knows who she is while she's trying to hide her face but he can still sense her there too because she's using yes the wow the subtle nuances in your directing of this movie are just So, so far reaching.

The big connection that we have to mention, which is where all these universes come together, is that she has two wicked stepsisters. They are played by actors Emily Perkins and Catherine Isabel. Those are the actors who played Bridget and Ginger in Ginger Snaps. Wow. Dude, they're much less cool in this movie. Yeah, well, they're comic relief. well it's weird because emily perkins who plays bridget and this one plays brit oh what hey that sounds kind of similar oh because every clone has similar names wait no no i think that was damon sent us stefano putting in like a hint of like hey he knew where they're coming from that was on purpose bridget brit oh you know it wasn't because they were named uh in the script before they were cast. But good catch. Yeah, and Catherine Isabel's name is Brie, which doesn't sound anything like Ginger. No.

But you don't cast the two girls from Ginger Snaps as sisters in your movie. That's not a coincidence. Yeah, I could totally buy that. That's pretty odd, unless those two girls have a contract where they say, we'll never be in a movie unless it's together. Yeah. Out by 15, are dead in the scene, together forever. Exactly. That's their actual fact. That's what I was going to say. They actually are the girls from Ginger Snaps.

Well, you know, I have to say, blessed with those two actors. And at first, I thought I was going to be able to cast them in the United States out of L.A. And when I was talking to the casting director about it, they're like, no, no, no. these have to be hired out of Canada and I'm like but but but okay so when I got to Canada we were beginning to cast it and I realized the best way for these characters to work is if I found two actors that essentially were an act that had already done this before that knew each other that had each other's cues who had each other's comic timing down who could immediately dive in and do what like basically elevate what was already written and i had seen some of ginger snaps and realized oh that's it that has to be them and you know we got lucky they were available they came in and the audition cracked me up we could i was my my sides were hurting you know the producer was

pissing himself and we were like well we're done we've got them and and they just they did such a fantastic job and it was easy because because they had this great rapport and i gave them very very simple direction on what to do so they'd have a lot of contrast and they had a blast with it they were just and so much fun to be with on set you know they are the evil stepsisters and so they have to have they have to be formidable enemies yeah I have three sisters and so you know what happens with siblings who are who just have to and I was one of them who have to sort of lord over their younger siblings in order to get what they want I was just looking for the funny but also you know slightly serrated version of that so that it wouldn't just fall flat it really needed to feel like they were the worst sisters on the planet to have. And one of the goals that I think we found was that they were just narcissists.

Sort of turning that dial up was a lot of fun. It's no coincidence. If these two are sisters in this movie, we know, as we've already proven, that they are clones. So who's to say there couldn't be other clones of them working with this Cinderella program that already does Cinderella clones. Wow. Just to know, though, they're not clones of each other. They're just clones. No, sorry. They're two individuals. They're clones of two women from the 1800s who lived for a long time as werewolves. Then, eventually, Neolution made clones of them. And some of them were given to Dominique, who is clearly a secret agent of some kind. Speaking of Dominique, She has Selena Gomez rub like back cream on her back. The back cream is called Baby Got Back Knee. Its side effects are itching, redness, rashes, drowsiness, fainting, weight gain, mood swings, restless leg syndrome, agoraphobia, and more weight gain.

Oh, no. If you experience new or increased gambling or sexual urges, have a wonderful weekend and then consult your doctor. Wow. Now that's a commercial. Oh, man, I'm going to put on my back knee cream and just hit up hit up Vegas. I wrote that. Oh, we both loved it. And in the you know, because we realized in the cutting room, once we were finished shooting, it would be more authentic if we had a disclaimer like all pharmaceutical commercials do. And this was based on an existing sort of an existing pimple cream ad. and so i just wrote that and we put the text in and you know it flashes so quickly you have to be a fan to catch it and the studio i'm not sure they ever read it but probably found out it and if they did they probably thought it was funny so i that was one of the sneaky things i just love doing little sneaky things like that to see just to add you know like add the joke to the joke and

see if it works yeah yeah yeah those are the best parts of any movie and we love finding sneaky things so i'm glad we got one of them the young girl they got to play young selena gomez does not look like her at all in my opinion oh my gosh okay so yes it's like the furthest from her that young girl has a gigantic mouth selena gomez has the world's tiniest mouth right they look completely different. Her stepsisters put her on the couch and forced her to watch a video that she made when she was quote unquote younger. And of course, side note, Emily Perkins and Catherine Isabel are great. I love the way Catherine Isabel is like, no, no, just watch. It gets better. It's really fun delivery. Yes, the torture. Selena Gomez, when she was younger, was recording love videos to Joey, the Mark. My question is, how long has Joey been a big star? presumably he's supposed to be close to selena's age but if you look she holds up a magazine if

you look at him on the cover of the magazine he's the same age he's not younger that's weird so either this proves we weren't convinced that selena was a clone here's the proof either the girl in this video is not her and this was filmed recently which doesn't seem to be the case because selena is embarrassed or she is a clone with growth accelerators like the ones in star wars and she's only been alive a few years right accelerated growth right so yeah it makes perfect sense actually so something weird is going on here with selena's age with this video with joey's age something doesn't quite match and by the way i appreciate that you're up for just calling her selena because i can't remember it yeah i have no idea if you didn't believe me that there's something weird going on with age and also with the three twins in this family sorry with the three clones in this family three twins okay that doesn't even make sense

yeah three twins they'd be triplets dominique says the twins are turning 16 next week referring to bridget and ginger or brit and whatever the other name is she says and they'll keep turning 16 until i tell them to stop because they're having their birthday and selena she says they were turning 16 and selena's like didn't they turn 16 last year so something's going on with age here like maybe selena just had a rapid age growth but also they can also stop these clones from aging when they want to and the the twins uh brit and bridget and ginger are uh you know not going to be older than 16 until their handler tells them to stop yep she said so they'll keep turning 16 that's right of course so so the truth okay so the truth is is that offset we had a rejuvenation tube and we we essentially you know it's it's basically a time portal that can actually travel in two directions future or past and and if you step into it you don't leave

this temporal place it's it's temporal synchronous so you stay where you are you just age either down or up and so we we put selena selena's character in that tube and then you know as as a whatever nine-year-old and then aged her up and shot the next scene as a as a as an 18 or 16 year old i think yeah and and the the poor stepsister characters have to step into that every morning to not age yeah oh man that's why they were so mad at mary i mean you be if you're like every morning like you can't age get in there however at a certain age i would imagine anybody would get in that thing and go yes yeah that's true that's true this is gonna be like our greatest episode ever this is fantastic it all makes perfect sense now like now now i'm completely seduced by all of this. I believe that these Cinderella clones are conditioned to react to clocks ringing and they drop something that will attract their target. Because in most of the

Cinderella movies, this happens. That's true. I just have to say, instead of having her leave behind a slipper, like a glass slipper, they have her drop her Zune. I just thought that was hilarious because it really dates this movie it is very quiet isn't it because it's like by the way what the hell is a zoom it's like as if you're watching an old movie where like you know somebody accidentally dropped their typewriter as they left the building whose fingers fit in this typewriter well like a zune is just an appliance that is not in use like it doesn't exist anymore Yeah, that's exactly right. She was carrying a typewriter under her arm the entire time and then drops it. Oops. Right. Or maybe a printing press. That would have been, you know, just bringing it on wheels. Because we needed the songs captured on something for the lead character, Drew Seeley, to know about the song and know it was her.

So it had to be an iPod. But Apple wouldn't give us permission. Oh, no. No, of course not. And I was like, wait a minute, guys, don't you? And they're like, no, thank you. So we went to whoever made the Zune. I think it was Microsoft, right? Yeah. And they were like, yes, please, please put the Zune in your movie, please. I mean, come on. Everyone wants their product to be held by Selena Gomez. She was huge at the time. I know. What's wrong with Apple? Well, I'll tell you what. Nobody knew that she would become the megastar that she was to become as a recording artist. And I think if Apple had known, they wouldn't have said no. So what do you think? Do you think the Cinderella clone theory holds any water? Is this an expanded universe? And is the Cinderella story program actually a program for having clones collect high-value marks? Well, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard in my life, and it's true.

No, I'm kidding.

Okay, so this theory has a lot of moving parts that need to fit together. Let me try and go over some of the most important evidences that you've dropped on us, and I'll tell you if it makes sense to me. So there's an evil corporation which exists in Ginger Snaps and in Orphan Black doing crazy experiments. They started cloning some werewolf girls from the 1800s, and those girls were the two girls from Ginger Snaps. Okay, that makes sense? The two girls from Ginger Snaps also appear in another Cinderella story. Yes, they definitely do. So that makes sense. That connects those three series together that means that all the cinderella story movies are connected to the world of orphan black and to the world of ginger snaps we know that the cinderellas from the cinderella story movies are clones because they're all orphans well because they're in the same universe they age weirdly there's there's evidence of that okay it's true and also and one of them

their stepsisters are clones of the fitzgerald sisters yes that's another cinderella story clearly these cinderellas are always ending up with like celebrities or you know rich people or you know somehow high value people and they're doing so in situations that are like definitely strange so yeah okay i mean i think i can buy it we've connected the universes together and something weird is definitely going on with these cinderellas that is pretty much inexplainable outside of the context that you have provided um yeah eliminating all impossible options whatever remains must be true and that is the explanation that you've provided so i will say yeah i believe it clearly a shared universe duh yeah like foolproof i mean this has to have been intended airtight i mean i give it like uh you know two thumbs up a great theory wow but but it's this is how all the crazy conspiracy theories start is like the association of one

thing with another thing with another thing with it yeah yeah until you are seeing uaps flying around in your bathroom it's like that's it well i hope you enjoyed this discussion this is the kind of crazy wacky zany stuff you can expect from the popcorn isn't real and if you want to keep expecting this kind of stuff we've got a patreon uh just a reminder that our podcast is completely entirely independent uh we don't you know have any sponsorships we don't we're not owned by any company uh it's just us doing this uh in our in our off time uh we're both working full-time jobs too so if you like what we're doing want to support it um you know go and go on our patreon and become a subscriber great talking to you guys you're a breath of fresh air but also like growing up were you two essentially doing this as kids and then found yourself in a podcast basically i mean when torvald moved to denmark we would just talk to each other for like

three hours every saturday and i usually it's about movies and often we had theories so i said We should just record this. Oh, that's great. Just talk about our own theories, other people's theories. We'd research them and just chat about them. And then Leif was like, why aren't we recording this? We could make a whole podcast. And that's what we do. Wow, good for you. That's great. Music for this episode is provided by Christine.

Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode. And until next time, remember, the popcorn isn't real.

*crickets*